Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well,.... two actually,... (he he)

Just thought everyone might like to check out a couple of my green patternless african rock pythons. My smaller male is on the left. The female on the right is my smallest female. She's about 10 1/2 or 11 feet. You can see how interested in each other these two are, lol. These have yet to have mated. Their names are "Lime" and "Sweet Pea".

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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Thats how I perfer to go to bed, I face one way and she faces the other.

Rottenweiler, you have a foot fetish? Just kidding.

Beautiful patternless' Damon

>>Beautiful patternless' Damon

Thanks Bro.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Nice snakes Brian. I would still like to see some photos of the croc facility though. Good to see that you do actually own some animals. I just knew posting here would get your attention.

#23
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Brian/Damon, This is NOT to criticize ANYONE who works with patternless rocks but I just cannot understand why on earth anyone would want to selectively breed out one of the most beautiful and contrastingly patterned snakes in a normal rock. If you are going to produce an olive green looking python, I would personally like to go with an Olive Python (which is what I am currently working with)....great size with an incredibly docile temperment. But it just goes to show that everyone has a different eye towards different things. Personally, I think this is another example of creating a demand ($$$$$$$) for having something "different" but this different thing, in my opinion, will only hurt captive gene pools for pure looking african rocks. If there is some sort of underlying temperment that only occurs with the patternless morphs then I can understand to some extent. Anyway, not trying to stir the pot, cause trouble or anything of the like....they are impressive looking animals but they don't pale in comparison to a nicely patterned rock.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation
1401 Middlefork Drive
Lake Forest, IL 60045

Give me a nicely patterned normal African rock python any day. Or rather, give it to somebody who has the facility to house it properly who doesn’t expect a ton of happy “hands on” interaction. I think a big shift box or a cage divider is really necessary for stress-free maintenance of this species. I’ve never heard anybody who knows what they’re talking about who would say that one of these guys fully grown is a suitable “pet” for an average keeper.

-Joan

Nobody, in here ever says that these guys are great pets, or should be someones first snake or second or ever get one. Infact they always talk about the challenge they bring. The people who have them know what they have and how to deal with them, they love the colors, and maybe the challenge of them. Its no different well alittle different from people who own hots. Just cause you have a snake does not mean you have to take it out everywhere and show everyone. It can be admired from the cage. I don't own a rock and don't plan on getting one but I like to here about different big snakes. I also like Brians Cyle whatever it was. That was pretty cool to. Plus its not somthing you see at shows to buy either.

It appears that we agree except perhaps for two statements:

“Nobody, in here ever says that these guys are great pets”. I think one person here who is trying to build a business selling snakes is advocating that they can make good pets.

“It can be admired from the cage”. Maybe a visitor can admire them from outside the cage, but the keeper has to be able to work with them safely. Your typical cage will probably be inadequate for a typical full grown P. sebae to be cared for by a lone keeper.

Like I say, I think we probably have similar views on this subject. But even if we don’t, I appreciate that you can discuss the issue unhysterically without resorting to name calling.

-Joan

One thing that I think is being overlooked or atleast being pushed to the side is the fact that Damon, as well as many others are either in the process of starting their business or are running one already. The main aspect of a business is to make profit. I know that to raise herps you should not be looking at it solely as a profitable undertaking but whenever some one buys high end morphs they are looking at them as an investment. Right now the market is demanding the production of these high end morphs. If one person doesn't make them then surely pthers will. It is strictly a matter of business. You have to give the customer the product that they want. That is what Damon is doing. I do agree that the normal version of most herps look better than the morphs but if the demand isn't there then you wouldn't have a successfull business now would you. Todd

up to a point. Unlike some people, I do not agree that any species of herp should be denied to QUALIFIED keepers. That’s a whole other subject, though.

What you seem to be overlooking is my objection to someone proclaiming the appropriateness of P. sebae in particular as a good pet species. Simple. This is not a parade anyone with the slightest claim to credibility would be leading. Or following, Todd.

This nonsense is a lot like Damon's "Alligators make great pets" talk. I'm sorry, but this "debate" is flat wacky. I look around and wonder where all the grownups are lurking. Hello?

Regarding free enterprise: Hey, I’m with you there.

-Joan

Joan,.. how many rock pythons or alligators do you currently have? Do you really know anything about either? Quite frankly it does not seem that you do. I keep many of both and know what I am talking about on both fronts. Until you actually keep and maintain or raise either species from a captive produced baby you have zero reliable knowledge on either subject.

Happy herping with your one burmese.

>>up to a point. Unlike some people, I do not agree that any species of herp should be denied to QUALIFIED keepers. That’s a whole other subject, though.
>>
>>What you seem to be overlooking is my objection to someone proclaiming the appropriateness of P. sebae in particular as a good pet species. Simple. This is not a parade anyone with the slightest claim to credibility would be leading. Or following, Todd.
>>
>>This nonsense is a lot like Damon's "Alligators make great pets" talk. I'm sorry, but this "debate" is flat wacky. I look around and wonder where all the grownups are lurking. Hello?
>>
>>Regarding free enterprise: Hey, I’m with you there.
>>
>>-Joan
>>
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Hi i think you cant educate or give out info on any reptile unless you have owned it for at least 3-4 years. If you have not raised a retic or rock from a hatch ling to a sub adult, i personally feel that you don't have the experience to give out accurate info. example me, i have a few retics biggest is a 12' 1/2 female. I have raised this female from a baby but still feel uncomfortable giving out info on retics because i have not had enough experience handling retics. what i would like to say about my 12 footer is she is a total sweat heart and I'm glad i bought her. I'M not trying to be a problem just expressing my feelings about this subject.

That's very true snakeman, very true. But even more importanly than time involved, is numbers. I think for one to dole out advice and "knowledge" about something they not only should own that species, but should own at least several. I can't just go buy one cape cobra and then set about posting about cape cobra idiosyncrasies in general based on my one little specimen. My cape cobra might be less aggressive than most cape cobras,. or more aggressive. Might be more hyper. So I wouldn't presume to hand out advice and knowledge unless I had at least several cape cobras to set a precedent. One needs a study GROUP to establish patterns and general characteristics that are unique to that species. (any species, not just cape cobras. this was merely an example)

>>Hi i think you cant educate or give out info on any reptile unless you have owned it for at least 3-4 years. If you have not raised a retic or rock from a hatch ling to a sub adult, i personally feel that you don't have the experience to give out accurate info. example me, i have a few retics biggest is a 12' 1/2 female. I have raised this female from a baby but still feel uncomfortable giving out info on retics because i have not had enough experience handling retics. what i would like to say about my 12 footer is she is a total sweat heart and I'm glad i bought her. I'M not trying to be a problem just expressing my feelings about this subject.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

I wouldn't knock the one burmese herpers, because that is probably most of your buisness. As of right now I only own one burm, because time, money, and space only allow one. I personaly do believe in breeding all different kind of morphs. And also if you don't like it you don't have to buy it. Personaly i beleive that the retic/burm morph is the most beautiful snake i have ever seen.

I somewhat understand what you are saying and I respect your opinion. I truely do. You seem to be a very knowledgable person and I respect all that are able to contribute to the successfull appearance of this hobby and lifestyle.
Now my two quick disagreements are first that most of the bad reputations that most of the boids have(chondros, ETB, rocks and retics) were labeled in the 70's and 80's when the mast majority of all the specimens in the USA were WC. There is a large difference between a captive born specimen and a wc one. I owned a wc retic as well as a wc amazon tree boa. These were not suitable pets, but I learned much from them. Todays snakes are so different from what they were in the past. A few generations of captive breeding and given the right husbandry and care then yes Rocks can be good pets. I have an associate in town where I live that keeps five or six rocks and all but one of them are incredibly docile creatures. I would say that they are relatively comparable to retics in the fact that once they are out of their cage they are fine snakes. They are just defensive when in their cages.
As far as exotics making good pets, I honastly think that any animal, if raised from a newborn and given the right amount of love and affection and kept in the right conditions can be a wonderful pet. I have seen 7' gators that were as friendly as any dog. I will not say it was "dog tame" becase I don't like that term, but I did trust it. I have known several people that had large water monitors that would greet its owner everyday when he came home. So yes I do think that all creatures can be good "pets" as long as it is given the proper care and treated properly, whether it be a rock python or a bengal tiger. Just my opinion, Todd

I took a bit of an offense of what you said (it sounded like it was directed at me) but you are entitled to speak your mind. It is not a question of being able to afford a certain designer snake, not even close (I have plenty of resources to purchase many of the high end herps on the market; I just choose not to). I have no idea what these patternless rocks are being sold for so taking shots at an animal that I can't own is bogus...my only point was that it is a real shame that captive breeding has stooped to such lows that we selectively breed "out" the most desired traits in a particular snake. After all, even as beautiful as a normal colored rock is, people won't pay the same price as a much drabber looking "unique" morph that just comes on to the market place. It really has come down to the almighty dollar. The same can be said for what we have done to the beautiful corn snake...now all we have are a bunch of mutts on the market. Try to find a pure, classic looking okeetee phase that isn't het for some ridiculous sounding name. I have been in the hobby and profession for many, many years. I basically eat and breathe reptiles and now that I am a bit older, I feel much wiser (and bolder) in voicing my opinions and I will just say that while we have made some wonderful advances in the hobby, particularly with the knowledge we have in captive breeding and some of the many excellent husbandry supplies and equipment, but, we have also taken some major strides backwards. But, in time, there will be a new movement to go back to appreciating "normal" colored herps the way we typically find them in nature. There will be an emphasis on keeping fewer animals in more naturalistic set ups and enjoying these "few" animals. The days of mass production of herps, I believe, will come to an end or be significantly reduced (or end up completely destroying what pure bloodlines we have left)....some of this reduction, unfortunately, will be due to much more strict regulations against keeping of certain types of herps (rocks, burms, retics, anacondas). I better shut up....Sorry that my original point was somewhat deluded by my strong opinions.

First off, no, that was not directed at you. I know that you work hard at a valid job and etc and could easily afford any of these snakes. I had said that many people that can't afford them often put them down and such as this is often the case.

And yes, this is a business. Sure. But it's a love and a hobby first and foremost. The business end of it is just so that I can make enough money so I can sit home and play with my snakes all day long every day for the rest of my life.

Now, the important aspect of the morph market is this: The regular burmese and rocks became overproduced and are priced at a rate that has rendered them "expendable". The morphs drive up the prices and force the consumer (in most cases, I realize there are exceptions) to view the snake in a much more valuable light and thus "non-expendable". If I were to just breed normal rocks because 60% of the consumer found them more attractive I would be adding to the problem of ultimately abandoned and abused snakes. I would be forced to sell them for 30 to 60 dollars because other people do and this is the very thing that I am trying to bring to an end. That and mass importation. So if by breeding morphs I can keep the prices higher and make the snakes less expendable then that is what I am going to do. Aside from which I really dig a lot of these morphs a lot. So it's also a joy to keep and breed them and work on multi-generational mega-morph projects.

The bottom line with you Rob,.. I have always respected you and what you do, both in the public eye as well as in the shadows with your personal projects. It is unfortunate that I have a personality conflict with a close friend of yours. I was always hoping that this would not have an affect on our professionalism toward one another here. It seems it has not and I admire that.

>>I took a bit of an offense of what you said (it sounded like it was directed at me) but you are entitled to speak your mind. It is not a question of being able to afford a certain designer snake, not even close (I have plenty of resources to purchase many of the high end herps on the market; I just choose not to). I have no idea what these patternless rocks are being sold for so taking shots at an animal that I can't own is bogus...my only point was that it is a real shame that captive breeding has stooped to such lows that we selectively breed "out" the most desired traits in a particular snake. After all, even as beautiful as a normal colored rock is, people won't pay the same price as a much drabber looking "unique" morph that just comes on to the market place. It really has come down to the almighty dollar. The same can be said for what we have done to the beautiful corn snake...now all we have are a bunch of mutts on the market. Try to find a pure, classic looking okeetee phase that isn't het for some ridiculous sounding name. I have been in the hobby and profession for many, many years. I basically eat and breathe reptiles and now that I am a bit older, I feel much wiser (and bolder) in voicing my opinions and I will just say that while we have made some wonderful advances in the hobby, particularly with the knowledge we have in captive breeding and some of the many excellent husbandry supplies and equipment, but, we have also taken some major strides backwards. But, in time, there will be a new movement to go back to appreciating "normal" colored herps the way we typically find them in nature. There will be an emphasis on keeping fewer animals in more naturalistic set ups and enjoying these "few" animals. The days of mass production of herps, I believe, will come to an end or be significantly reduced (or end up completely destroying what pure bloodlines we have left)....some of this reduction, unfortunately, will be due to much more strict regulations against keeping of certain types of herps (rocks, burms, retics, anacondas). I better shut up....Sorry that my original point was somewhat deluded by my strong opinions.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

I try to keep things professional; even on this forum which can be challenging at times. There's no doubt that you breed snakes because you truly love working with them; that is evident (and there's nothing wrong with being able to make a living at working with herps; heck, I have one of the best reptile jobs in the world). And yes, "normal" rock and burms are a dime a dozen....I guess that is what really bothers me; and that is, we have mass produced these animals so much, that there is no longer any appeal in owning a beautiful snake. Instead, it is more important to have something that is "different" or unique. I'd love to see more emphasis on how people keep these animals (the types of enclosures they are kept in). More emphasis should be on designing enclosures that fully meet the needs of the animals. I see so many people spend all of their money on the actual animal and then skimp on proper housing (and then they post a question on the forum that says something like "My $10,000 snake has a cold, I don't know why, but his temps are like in the 70's"....okay, a little extreme, but you get my point). I just hope that we can still protect some of the pure bloodlines/lineages of these beautiful animals so that they aren't reduced to nothing more than a glorified "mut" snake. Just my .o2. Good luck on your projects.

I think that it isn't fair to blame the breeders for the influx in normal phase boids in this country. I think that the main reason that the normal phases are so plentifull and that they no longer have any monitary value anymore is directly related to the importers. I do not see the need to import thousands upon thousands of wc animals when there is an ample amount of breeders that could produce these. It has helped out a little in the last decade with some of the species but not at all with others. Every spring balls are imported by the thousands every year. The normal phase ball has become so expendable that they sell dead balls (the ones that do not make through the importation process) for cobra food for as little as $3-$5. So to blame breeders for the massive influx in abandoned and neglected animals and fail to talk about the wild and needless importation by the importers and exporters is unfair. Todd

Yes, a decade or two ago this was a problem to some degree, however, if we are talking specifically about burmese pythons (I won't argue about ball pythons), you will find very few imported hatchling normal burms in the market place....look far and wide and you will only see a very small handful. Instead, what we currently have is a glut of captive born hatchlings, representing many different morphs, offered by private breeders who fully know that most of these babies that they are selling will eventually become abandoned, dished off from one owner to another, severely neglected, receive substandard care, or confiscated at some point in their lives. While I have absolutely NO negative feelings towards private breeders (I am one myself...but I no longer breed burms, just rescue them....my breeding efforts focus on: eastern indigo snakes, eastern massasaugas, gila monsters, olive pythons, ball pythons, green tree pythons, smooth green snakes and a few other surprises), I do feel that they (we) need to fess up and take some responsibility in contributing to the problem. When I go to some of the various breeder expos, I become somewhat infuriated by how we have reduced these animals to nothing more than an expendable "investment" in a deli cup...pretty sad.

>>Instead, what we currently have is a glut of captive born hatchlings, representing many different morphs, offered by private breeders who fully know that most of these babies that they are selling will eventually become abandoned, dished off from one owner to another, severely neglected, receive substandard care, or confiscated at some point in their lives.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

>>Instead, what we currently have is a glut of captive born hatchlings, representing many different morphs, offered by private breeders who fully know that most of these babies that they are selling will eventually become abandoned, dished off from one owner to another, severely neglected, receive substandard care, or confiscated at some point in their lives.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

How can you make this generalization as a statement of fact? I know and admit that a lot of the really big breeders don't care about anything but the money, but I personally am not this way. I care only about the animals and their wellbeing. I not only make darn sure that the buyer is a responsible, experienced keeper that has every intention of keeping the snake for its lifespan, I also offer a 100% unconditional "trade in policy" on all offspring of the giant snake species. I tell my customers that if it should ever get to big that they can trade it back in for a smaller snake of equal current value, of any species. I have yet to have anyone bring anything back yet, but the offer is still always there. Perhaps instead of stating that private breeders know full well, etc etc,. you can say that "some breeders" don't care where their babies end up, etc etc.

Also, I seriously doubt that anyone that buys a pair of albino tiger retics from me for 12,000 or 16,000 dollars is going to abuse, neglect, abandon or dish them off at any point in the snake's lives. But even regardless of price, Rob, I don't sell my animals to anyone that is not a devoted reptile lover. Just last night I turned down a sale because of how the potential customer seemed. The guy that called wanted a python. I asked if he had ever kept one before. He said "no". This in and of itself is not always a bad thing. Next I asked if he had ever kept any reptiles at all, if he had any experience at all. He said that yes, he had had some colubrids and such over the years. I then asked why he wanted a burmese python. He said because he was walking down the street and saw his neighbor holding a big one and he "thought it was awesome". That was when I decided that he would not get one of my snakes. Impulse buyers that want something just because it is impressive or big are the kind that lose interest, don't respect, and eventually will likely abandon or neglect the animal. Scenarios like this are not uncommon around here. So please don't lump me in with that generalization about breeders. Thanks
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.