Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There seems to be a lot of dissent over Georgia law lately.
I'd like to take a moment to clarify some things.
1) GA DNR is NOT out to get us all. They are tasked with enforcing the law as written. A number of DNR agents have attempted on numerous ocassions to change the laws with no success. DNR is NOT your target audience.
2) Any time a law is brought into existence, it becomes much more difficult to change than it would have been to prevent. Last year, GA DNR proposed a change to allow the public keeping of various common indigenous nonvenomous snakes, turtles and lizards. Unfortunately, as is often the case with politicians, someone attached a rider that would have made it legal to hunt deer over bait - something GA DNR had just managed to make illegal. Rather than lose ground on the hunting over bait issue, they dropped the proposed law change.
3) For the lady looking for kingsnake breeders in Georgia, simply put, it illegal to keep indigenous kingsnakes in GA, let alone breed them for profit, without a permit and documentation that you are using the animals for educational purposes. I am reasonably sure that breeding for profit will not make it as an educational pursuit.
4) It is reasonable to want to change the law to keep corns and kings. That does make sense and I agree with the thought. Especially since we, in Georgia, can't seem to keep people from crossing the borders, collecting at will and returning to our neighboring states and selling their catch for a profit. I support a change in the existing laws but not at the detriment of the other Georgia wildlife.
5) I am pretty sure that anyone would be hard-pressed to find someone that GA DNR had persecuted for keeping a corn or king snake. Maybe someone that had several, was caught in the field collecting, or even someone who was breeding them for profit. I know for a fact that GA DNR is much more interested in finding those folks who are blatantly ignoring the laws concerning nonindigenous (exotic) venomous snakes.
6) Until they do change the laws, keep on trying to get them changed. Be respectful and remember that once you take a stand, you shoulder a burden that others will leave you to carry on your own rather than step up themselves. People need to become involved. And not everyone "on the other side" is against you. Good luck.
Karl H. Betz

nm
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I'm the one that was asking about king breeders in GA. I knew keeping native species without a permit wasn't allowed, but I was under the impression that snakes native to other regions didn't qualify. Thus explaining why one can have a western hognose in GA without a permit, but not an eastern. So I wasn't expecting to find someone breeding eastern kings in GA, but I was hoping there would be captive breeders of non native kings. Please correct me if any information is wrong...are all kings just too closely related such that they all fall under the same regulations? But if that was true nobody in GA would be allowed to own kings from any locale. Just a little confused sorry.

Your assumptions about non-native kings are absolutely correct - they are legal.
Your post did not differentiate and I assumed - my mistake.
I have just become accustomed to the majority of the posters here that say "king" without ssp identification meaning easterns.
In fact, I keep:
California Kings (californiae)
Grey-banded Kings (alterna)
Variable Kings (thayeri)
Prairie Kings (calligaster)
Mountain Kings (pyromelana)
San Louis Potosi (mexicana)
and
Desert Kings (splendida)
notably all western ssps.
Unfortunately, I am not at home to breed them. Good luck with your quest.
Karl H. Betz

The dnr regulates freshwater turtles, salamaders, and bullfrogs. If one wants to collect these a valid fishing license is needed. I think if more people got involved the law could be changed. Dnr does talk about conservation but why do they let rattlesnake round ups go on? Someday when its all said and done the eastern diamond back will be extinct in Georgia. I personally don't agree with the mass slaughter of these animals.

just my two cents,
ebc

Georgia DNR, the Georgia Herp Society, and the Southeastern Hot Herp Society have been trying to get people involved in ending the rattlesnake roundups in Georgia.
Very few people actually showed up. Some didn't want to spend any money to get there and others wanted to be paid for their involvement.
The fact of the matter is, people will write a letter or type an email but that is usually as far as they'll go. One town gave up round-ups to have a wild-chicken festival and asked that herpers come and display live herps to still draw the crowd. We thought it would be a great way to show the other towns that sponsor round-ups that they wouldn't lose revenue by giving up killing snakes.
GA Herp Society showed up.
My wife and I showed up (SHHS).
Two other herpers showed up who had been going every year for years.
So how interested in saving the indigenous venomous reptiles are people? Not very interested by my count of those actively involved.
Karl H. Betz

liz

Wether you enforce no spitting on the sidewalk - no keeping of nonvenemous species - no jaywalking. Come on now, the DNR are humans with common sense? (I hope). Is a cop going to enforce someone jaywalking with a ticket, or spitting on the sidewalk in a town. HARDLY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So why should the individuals working for DNR waste their time with a person who has a kingsnake in their hand???? Don't they have ANY common sense??? So why not be a little resentful towards DNR individuals that have nothing better to do than to prosecute someone who just picked up a "roadkill" Don't they have bigger fish to fry??? (or is GA a state full of crimeless people)
After all, we wouldn't hate the town for passing a 'no spitting on the sidewalk' law - WE would hate the cop for enforcing such a ridicoulous law?? IT'S HUMAN NATURE.
So if you're working for DNR and reading this: I LOVE YOU GUYS/GALS, LOL!!! And remember: there's strength in numbers!

PEACE , (sorry I live happily with my collection of GA Kings AND Eastern Indigo in the "FREE" state of NC.) BOOOWAAHAAHAA!!!!

Zee

Exactly the reason it is so hard to get the laws changed.
It is always good to see responsible keepers who are respectful of the law and the people tasked with enforcing it.
Some people work very hard at making things right.
Some people thumb their noses with their butts firmly planted on the fence.
Where do you find yourself?
Karl H. Betz

I would like to do a reptile documentary and I know someone who could get it aired on tv. The only problem is some people don't like going on tv. Its for the benifit of all reptile keepers in GA and herp keepers in general. If we ever get it recorded it would be nice. The hard part is gaining support from other herpers for a video documentary. Not a hole lot of people like the idea of going on camera.

I have written my local congress man in my district have not anything yet .

just my two cent,
john

Posted by: Buzztail1 at Mon Mar 8 22:20:11 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

(((Exactly the reason it is so hard to get the laws changed.
It is always good to see responsible keepers who are respectful of the law and the people tasked with enforcing it.
Some people work very hard at making things right.
Some people thumb their noses with their butts firmly planted on the fence.
Where do you find yourself?
Karl H. Betz)))

I find myself motivating folks like you to change things. Sometimes a little negative motivation is better than none at all. So let it spread,LOL. If enough people get off their lazy butts and speak up then yes things might actually change. Remember, I live in NC, AND STILL do my part all the way from NC!!! I DO go to GA and talk to officials FACE to FACE (ain't scared of anybody) several times a year. I DO write letters. The children are our future - so giving hundreds of FREE reptile shows/seminars to educate the Ignorant. Where do you find YOURSELF???????????????(instead of enforcing questionable laws) Lets kill some eastern diamondbacks in GA.- no harm in it. . . . . . . right????

Served 21 years for this country,
Just returned from Iraq,
Drive thousands of miles to help change GA laws EVERY year!!!

Zee

You might want to get to know your audience.
You don't motivate me.
I gave my first free school presentation in 1975 and have continued to give presentations to any group that would listen since then.
I have traveled across the states of Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina and Florida to remove snakes, from five foot long Diamondbacks to neonate Garters from people's yards and have never charged a dime.
Write letters? Of course!
Face to face with DNR? All the time!
Support killing rattlesnakes? Never!
Support breaking one state's laws, especially while living in another? Not!
Service to the country?
Still active duty at over twenty years.
What's that got to do with it?
Karl H. Betz

Posted by: Buzztail1 at Tue Mar 9 09:50:19 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

(((You might want to get to know your audience.)))
TRYING TO. BEEN BUSY PROTECTING YOUR FREEDOM SO YOU can REMOVE SNAKES AT NO EXPENSE AND KEEPING TERRORISTS FROM KILLING YOUR LOVED ONES

(((You don't motivate me.)))
I ALREADY HAVE!!! YOU WROTE BACK DIDN'T YOU???

(((I gave my first free school presentation in 1975 and have continued to give presentations to any group that would listen since then.)))
KUDOS TO YOU - I'VE DONE THE SAME ALL WHILE PROTECTING YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO FREELY!!!!

(((I have traveled across the states of Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina and Florida to remove snakes, from five foot long Diamondbacks to neonate Garters from people's yards and have never charged a dime.)))
YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON. I'VE BEEN TO 43 OUT OF THE 50 STATES AND DONE THE SAME. BUT...REMOVING (HARMLESS) SNAKES IN GA. IS AGAINST THE LAW - NO EXCUSES, REMEMBER???

(((Write letters? Of course!)))
YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON YOU JUST DIDN'T GET THE POINT FROM MY EARLIER POST. JAYWALKING/TOSSING CIGARETTE BUTTS/SPITTING ON SIDEWALKS. IAM SURE YOU'VE NEVER EVER EVER JAYWALKED BEFORE. JUST LIKE I'M SURE YOU'VE NEVER EVER TOOK A SNAKE HOME WITH YOU (AFTER "REMOVING IT"WHEN YOU SHOULDN'T HAD. COME ON, GET REAL!!!!! IF SO, YOU ARE THE ONLY PERFECT HUMAN ON EARTH (THAT NEVER JAYWALKED EITHER, Lmao)

(((Face to face with DNR? All the time!)))
I EVEN GIVE THEM MONEY, WHEN THEY SELL SNAKES, LEGALLY OF COURSE - YOU TOO???

(((Support killing rattlesnakes? Never!)))
HAVE YOU BEEN TO A ROUNDUP TO SHARE YOUR SENTIMENTS PUBLICLY, BY SPEAKING UP - I HAVE???

(((Support breaking one state's laws, especially while living in another? Not!)))
EVERYTIME YOU REMOVE AN ANIMAL YOU, YES YOU, ARE BREAKING THE LAW IN GA. (GARTERSNAKES, ETC.) ALL MY ANIMALS WERE BOUGHT. ASK KEVIN ENGE, LEN KRYSKO, AND RICK SLADDICK. NICE TRY, THOUGH...

(((Service to the country?)))
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT???ARE YOU ASHAMED/SCARED TO DIE FOR THIS COUNTRY ????? PITY YOU. . .

(((Still active duty at over twenty years.)))
I AM PROUD OF WHAT I DID FOR MY COUNTRY. NOT EVERY COUNTRY HAS THE FREEDOM AND RIGHT TO PICK UP SNAKES AND EXPRESS THEIR OPINION WITHOUT GOING TO PRISON.

(((What's that got to do with it?)))
TO REMIND YOU THAT I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE AS MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS AS YOU DID, AND STILL ACCOMPLISHED THE SAME AS YOU. EVEN WHEN SERVING OVERSEAS!!!

AND I STILL LOVE YOU GUYS - SORRY IF I STEPPED ON YOUR LITTLE TOE, FORGIVE ME. WOULD LOVE TO CHAT WITH YOU ON THE PHONE ONE DAY. NO HARD FEELINGS - PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T HATE - PARTICIPATE!!!

zee

You might want to try to comprehend the responses you get before you respond to them?

I have been active military in one way or another since 1976. I enlisted in 1984. I am still active duty and therefore still am protecting people's rights to disagree with me or whoever.

Why is it that you got the whole question followed by an answer format up until that point?

Thank you for your sacrifice but I think if you look around, you might notice that you weren't the only one there. My daughter, my son, and my brother in law all started out this latest war as active duty military right along with me. My daughter "ate sand" with the rest of her unit. My son packed the parachutes for men jumping into the action over there. My son-in-law literally dodged bullets during action in Iraq. So thanks for protecting my right to raise my family to follow my footsteps into the military, WHERE I STILL SERVE ON ACTIVE DUTY ALONG WITH MY LOVED ONES!

"BEEN BUSY PROTECTING YOUR FREEDOM SO YOU can REMOVE SNAKES AT NO EXPENSE AND KEEPING TERRORISTS FROM KILLING YOUR LOVED ONES"

(((I gave my first free school presentation in 1975 and have continued to give presentations to any group that would listen since then.)))
"KUDOS TO YOU - I'VE DONE THE SAME ALL WHILE PROTECTING YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO FREELY!!!!"

AS HAVE I!!!

YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON. I'VE BEEN TO 43 OUT OF THE 50 STATES AND DONE THE SAME.

Funny thing about all the states I listed (as opposed to 43 out of 50 - they all have ocean front property - guess which service I am in?).

BUT...REMOVING (HARMLESS) SNAKES IN GA. IS AGAINST THE LAW - NO EXCUSES, REMEMBER???

Sure it is. Now call up your friends at GA DNR and ask them if it is better to allow the local police to come kill the snake or for a known local snake enthusiast to come move it. Having already made that call, I know the answer.

(((Write letters? Of course!)))
YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON YOU JUST DIDN'T GET THE POINT FROM MY EARLIER POST. JAYWALKING/TOSSING CIGARETTE BUTTS/SPITTING ON SIDEWALKS. IAM SURE YOU'VE NEVER EVER EVER JAYWALKED BEFORE. JUST LIKE I'M SURE YOU'VE NEVER EVER TOOK A SNAKE HOME WITH YOU (AFTER "REMOVING IT"WHEN YOU SHOULDN'T HAD. COME ON, GET REAL!!!!! IF SO, YOU ARE THE ONLY PERFECT HUMAN ON EARTH (THAT NEVER JAYWALKED EITHER, Lmao)

If you looked, you could find where I have written articles about this in the past. I do, in fact try to lead by example and you would find no illegal snakes at my house in spite of my desires to keep several exotic species of venomous. I will either get the laws changed, not keep them or move. I won't keep them illegally.

(((Face to face with DNR? All the time!)))
I EVEN GIVE THEM MONEY, WHEN THEY SELL SNAKES, LEGALLY OF COURSE - YOU TOO???

I am not sure what this means, but no, I don't buy snakes from DNR. I have donated my time and snakes to display, at their (GA DNR) request, in order to support stopping rattlesnake roundups...

(((Support killing rattlesnakes? Never!)))
HAVE YOU BEEN TO A ROUNDUP TO SHARE YOUR SENTIMENTS PUBLICLY, BY SPEAKING UP - I HAVE???

(((Support breaking one state's laws, especially while living in another? Not!)))
EVERYTIME YOU REMOVE AN ANIMAL YOU, YES YOU, ARE BREAKING THE LAW IN GA. (GARTERSNAKES, ETC.)
See above regarding removing or killing.

ALL MY ANIMALS WERE BOUGHT. ASK KEVIN ENGE, LEN KRYSKO, AND RICK SLADDICK. NICE TRY, THOUGH...
Never suggested that you collected illegally. Just that you verbally support people removing snakes illegally by saying that it is no big deal.

(((Service to the country?)))
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT???ARE YOU ASHAMED/SCARED TO DIE FOR THIS COUNTRY ????? PITY YOU. . .

Not sure how you misread all this...

(((Still active duty at over twenty years.)))
(((What's that got to do with it?)))
TO REMIND YOU THAT I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE AS MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS AS YOU DID, AND STILL ACCOMPLISHED THE SAME AS YOU. EVEN WHEN SERVING OVERSEAS!!!

Thanks for saying that all the time I have spent deployed away from my family (quite a bit of time over the last 20 years) isn't as important as your time.

Need to step back and clip that chip off your shoulder. You volunteered to join the military just as I did. You don't need to rub people's faces in the fact that you served.

I still don't agree with illegal collection just because you don't agree with the law. Become active and get the law changed. DNR is actively trying to change the laws. They are not the enemy. Politicians are the ones who are measuring the profit line.
Not a hater, long time participator,
Karl H. Betz
PS - I have no desire to continue discussing my military career here as that is not exactly on topic. If someone has questions about my patriotism, I can be reached at Buzztail1@hotmail.com KHB

Ok, so you don't jaywalk, never have. Never spat before, only outside of town limits etc. etc. etc. WOW,that is GOOD!!!
REMEMBER,this is a country in which a LOT of people don't agree with certain "petty" laws. But that is exactly why - if you don't take it to extreme, (I repeat: TAKE IT TO EXTREME) it is OK to "jaywalk" (everyone knows it's illegal-hardly anyone agrees) - safely of course. Take a small snake ONCE IN A GREAT WHILE (not to make a profit) and save it's life and don't feel like you just committed mass murder. You must not be very smart if you STILL think I support massive collecting of snakes. First of all NONE of mine are wildcaught. Got receipts for all of them (just in case NC. gets a wild hair up their butt and copies GA. laws - I also have written proof & phone numbers from their breeders)
Next, I WILL NOT prosecute a small child for handling a small harmless snake. Nor will I prosecute someone who is saving a snake's life by taking it home from a construction site or a group of uneducated folks with the intent of killing. It would have died anyway. BUT I WILL SLAMDUNK someone all the way if he's in the woods/forest and has the means (pillow cases, boxes, containers, books, snake tools etc.) to collect many snakes and has at least one in his/her possession. COME ON MAN, where is your common sense. I AM on your side. YOU ARE the one with a CHIP on your shoulder. So maybe YOU should RELAX "buzztail".(IT IS buzztail ain't it?) THIS rattler ain't buzzin' I'm mellow (no buzzin' from my tail) - EASY LIKE SUNDAY MORNING!
PEACE - brother

ZEE (aka BlueKing - a beautiful, mellow,snake)

I just stumbled on this exchange accidently while trying to see if the little dark blue lizard I inadvertently killed that was in a stump I was cleaning out, was a danger to my cat if he chewed on it. I must say, you two are exhausting! I hope you've gotten together by now because you sound exactly alike!