Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone. I just read a few of the arguments about soil, 24/7 lighting etc down below and wanted to say a couple comments. First of all all the potential problems that have bene brought up are completely valid. There could definitely be potential problems with diggable dirt substrate and a 24/7 lighting system. These methods of husbandry have not been tested adequately (at least I don't think) in Bearded Dragons.

But that does bring up another point. All of the ways we have learned to care for dragons had to start somewhere. I'm sure there have been times in the past when a simple husbandry choice that has now become accepted and common knowledge (ie "hey, they don't really need a waterbowl" was looked down upon. It is only through trying new things that we may learn even better methods to care for our dragons. Personally, I care for my dragons too much to put them in an environment that I am unsure about its safety but I think there is a place for testing new methods of husbandry.

The only problem with this is when people bring up a new possible method for keeping dragons and relatively new keepers attempt a fairly difficult method of keeping their lizards. I know this happened on the Uromastyx forum just a few months ago. The idea of a dirt substrate was introduced by a very advanced lizard keeper. For this person, I honestly believe dirt substrate was the way to go, as Uromastyx are definitely burrowing lizards and the person had a tremendous prior knowledge of dirt substrates. But even then, the method had not been tested adequately (and I'm looking forward to seeing the results next year). But all of a sudden, a huge number of people read the posts and decided to try a very complicated system. Anyway, I felt a lot of people jumped the gun (including myself for one of my uromastyx, although he is doing quite well on dirt) without taking into consideration that the method had not been tested with this species of lizard.

My point among all this rambling is I do think new methods of husbandry have a place and we should not attack anyone who decides to try something new. But beginning keepers should be advised to stick to what has been proven to be healthy to a vast number of animals before trying a novel approach.

Peter

Hey, I must say very good post. Great way to approach things.

If you read my posts below you'll see I state I have done this, I hope noone else would think they had to or must do this. That is the reason I do not like saying my caresheet is this, or my methods are that. I do fear for the people that read it only to take it word for word.

Also as I stated below this is what I have done, it may or may not work in your situation. So please use what works for you.

Thanks again for showing that you are understanding.

Peter,
glad to see you uro is doing good in the soil. I have my 3 malis on it and I will never go back to dry sand. I do keep the light on for them 24/7, but not my dragons. Not that I think it won't work for dragons, but because it won't work with my current dragon set-ups. What mix do you use by the way?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Hey Bill,

Yeah, the soil is working well although I do have a couple problems with it. I feel it's the best for my Uro but not necessarily the best for me as I rarely get to handle him anymore. I'm hoping he'll calm down once he gets older as my large Egyptian (Boulder) is as calm as can be. As far as the dirt I used dirt found dug out of gopher holes in the foothills of Santa Barbara, CA. It's worked beautifully.

As far as soil for bearded dragons I'm not so set in my ways to say it wouldn't work but I have strong doubts. The dragons just don't seem like they would enjoy burrowing as much as Uro's. Their body shape is not that of a burrowing reptile either. If you look at Uro's and Monitors their heads shape (very small in the case of Uro's and narrow in the case of monitors) and position of nostrils is perfect for burrowing. With such a wide head, I don't see how Bearded Dragons could burrow with any finesse and would be worried about them getting stuck/ causing cave ins. (see below for comparison of head shape...I'm sure you know but others may be interested)

I have tried a 24/7 light schedule before but modified. In winter months I set up my Uro cage with dirt to have an incandescent running all the time and then had the bright fluorescents on timers. This way there would still be a distinction between night and day. I ended up switching the incandescent to a ceramic heat emitter in order to keep the simulated night and day pattern as I was noticing he was getting up at really odd hours and his food ended up spoiling because I could not predict when he would be awake or asleep and (as I'm sure you know) food wilts fast in the heat of a Uro cage.

Glad to hear the Mali's are doing well.

Peter

Differing head shapes

.

Yeah, My Malis became more skittish, but I viewed it as a good sign. It doesn't bother me not to handle them, I'm just happy they're doing there "thing". I have thought about the head shape of beardies also, and I agree. The thing is ,with respect to the big debate that was going on, they don't need to dig a burrow to escape a light source. I would imagine a burrow would not necesarilly be safe for them in the outback, how would you escape from a monitor? Just another thought I had. I do wonder if they might benefit from a less dry substate with respect to hydration. Anyway, I have seen your pics before but I gotta say, the colors on your dragons are insane.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Yeah, a monitor would rip through a Beardies hole in seconds. That makes sense actually. There is a principle in biology set forth by a russian ecologists named Gauss called the "competitive exclusion principle." (probably heard of it) It basically states that no two organisms can have the same niche in a given population. Also, there is a user on kingsnake that is from Australia who has said Beardies spend most of their their time in trees and shrubs. It seems they have found their own niche by sacrificing digging ability for the power to scare off predators with a large head and beard display.

Peter

i totally agree. i don't think beardies were made to burrow.

i do think that beardies do benafit from a moist substrate. right now i have my female on a moist substrate all the time cuz she is laying right now and i don't want any eggs to get ruined before i get home.....i have found that she is soo much better hydrated, doesn't need/want any water, sheds really easy, and is quite active now!!! even though her substrate is 10-15 inches deep, i am gonna put my other beardies onto a moist substrate of about an inch or maybe 2, just enough to stay moist....but not enoughh to create a burrow if they dug.

i think most all reptiles can benefit from a moist substrate (i'm not recommending putting all on one) i'm just saying i think they could all benefit from one.

trevor
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Trevor Bennett
E-mail: yruemailinme15@yahoo.com
yahoo SN: yruemailinme15
location: Salem, Oregon

Trust me beardies can and will dig. Now can they dig as well in a hard dirt as say an argus monitor NO. But if given suitable dirt they can dig.

Just an example I use dirt for my chameleons. Now there little oven mit hands should be the worst for digging. But the female constantly digs 16 inches or further to lay her egg's. It is a perfect burrow that would make my ackies proud.

Right. I think I should have reworded what I was saying. I know they can and will dig. I've watched my female dig a huge hole and end up at the bottom of it, almost completely out of sight. The point I was trying to make is they don't seem like "burrowing reptiles" unlike uromastyx and monitors. My small egyptian uromastyx has built a hugely elaborate set of tunnels in which he spends most of his time. I can't see this happening with a BD. Because of this I think much of the benefit of a dirt substrate is lost, although I think some would argue the added humidity helps with dessication. Personally, I think going the opposite route...using a substrate such as shelf liner for extra cleanliness would be more beneficial; few can argue that cleanliness is a common trend in the evolution of both modern society and animal husbandry. Bearded Dragons have been shown to do incredibly well in this environment (take a look at the user "mattman"...his animals are all HUGE and incredibly healthy), unlike monitors which show a genuine need to burrow.

Peter

VERRRY NICE LOOKIN LIZZARDS!!!! I have been keeping my Nigerian Uro's on desert top soil and have found that it is to fine for burrows they dig and throw up a ton of dust. So I am looking into a different mix or something to add to make it better for them. My Vet did suggest desert top soil for the beardies also but since it is so dusty I am still with shelf liner.

That's always been my belief as well...new keepers without the knowledge of longtime keepers will often make poor choices and not see what's coming because of lack of experience....

My issues are not and have never been with someone doing it their own way that is not the "excepted" version, but of giving the advice to try something not "tried and true" on a more than personal scale to new keepers who don't have the background to know when something may be a problem, until it really "is" a problem. I do some things that I wouldn't ever suggest a new owner try, there can be many pitfalls for newbies as it were and I wish them to have great success with their animals and then venture out to find what works for them when they have that confidence and experience that will guide them through.

And Aztec....something else we agree on...what do you know...I keep my malis on dirt as well.....though I don't do the 24/7 lights thing.......I use a clay soil for compaction with a bit of sand and peat in the mix.....the peat helps retain some moisture and the sand seems to mix the peat and clay soil together well.....I've always kept them on dirt, though I've only had malis for 3 years now, so long term results aren't in, but they are doing great.....I also keep my ackies and tegus on soil mixture, and so does my brother with his savanahs and argus's.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

of the effect of interupting the circadian rhythms cycles.

Constant light suppresses circadian rhythms in a variety of organisms from single cell organisms to complex ones like humans. It effects their sleep, alertness, pain sensitivity, ability to thermoregulate properly and hormone production levels. Also effected is the ability of the genes to transcribe DNA into RNA by desynchronization of that cycle. Another is the liver to release emzynes and other chemicals.

There are studies and results available online and in medical reference journals by doctors and reserachers, but then those will be called inadequate again by others.... so why bother to cite them, anyone interested can look them up by entering circadian rhythms into search engines or checking the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

The real proof of someones advice is in the evidence of their animals.....long term, not a few months or even a few years. Like Tracey who has some of the longest lived dragons around today in captivity, and steady with her or some of the other breeders that use moderation in waiting to proper age and health. On the other hand others advocating this may not be honest in some of the complications they have had, that studies show are common results of constant lighting or have any dragons they can present that are over a few years old. I know for a fact one that recommends this lighting set up to others has had egg bound female and who's hormone production was effected or no animals to show this works, they are given away, sold or untracable.

Proof of poor results can be found sometimes very fast. I know they are not reptiles, but close and one example that about everyone knows of is keeping lights on 24/7 for chickens to lay eggs or grow faster for market. They produce 2-3 times the amount of normal and grow faster since they are eating more often, but also have only a portion of their normal life span.... from over laying.. the fast growing ones don't make it that long, but they don't count in the terms of effects on their life

Yet again, someone unwilling to acknowledge those studies or even their own results will make excuses or claim the studies are not adequate.

Each person has to decide what they want to believe and why based on the information offered... but often its not all admitted too as it would show negative results. What I mostly do not understand is WHY someone would do this and try in get others too when they know they have had problems. I also think it very strange that many of the people here this weekend in these "husbandry disputes" come from a forum that is constantly in turmoil over some of the same things or are names just registered this weekend.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Hey Cheri =)

Good to see you poking your head in. First of all I want to thank you for everything you did for me when I was going through the problems I had with Pebbles. You really helped me a lot and encouraged me to stick with it and I ended up getting a refund.

My point in this debate is not to say one way is right over another. If I had to make a choice (and I guess I have since it is reflected in my animal husbandry) I would say 24/7 lighting and burrowing substrate for Bearded Dragons is a definite no no. But like I said, that is not the point. The point is that progress comes by questioning the standards. If we stopped questioning are own beliefs on the optimum lifestyle of humans 100 years ago we would not have seen the advances we have seen in the last 100 years. I take care of my Dragons in the way that--from all the research I have done--I believe is optimum. But I'm sure if my children are raising Bearded Dragons at my age there will be a slightly different set of "do's and dont's." Progress comes by trying new things.

Sometimes people with strong opinions do mislead people however. This often happens when would be "experts" take a limited sample size and over apply their findings. If people base their knowledge on a small sampling you come up with things like "Egyptian Uromastyx love cats." (My egyptian uromastyx likes my cat so...). Obviously this is a gross exaggeration but you get my point. I think too many people want to be "the expert."

Personally, what I would like to see is a place where statistics matter more than opinions. I would like to see more posts that simply stated facts such as growth charts with certain temperature gradients, lighting, dietary supplements, clutch sizes etc. so we could all come to some sort of conclusions. But in order for this to happen people need to be able to post messages without feeling like they will be pointed out for bad husbandry practices.

The flip side of things is a moral issue however. Gathering accurate knowledge of husbandry practices sometimes means subjecting a loved creature to environments that, by the latest knowledge, may seem substandard. Is this right? Who knows. Take for example, the highly contested UVB issue. Right now there is evidence that UVB is necessary and evidence that UVB can be replaced with proper supplmentation. I have seen much better looking dragons in those who have UVB, but there could simply be a correlation between amount of care provided that has nothing to do with lighting (after all, someone who is willing to spend $45 dollars on a light every 6 months is most likely going to be willing to do a lot of other things for their dragon as well). Now, most of us simply think the choice is obvious: supplement and provide UVB and there won't be any problem. But others choose to question the issue. Personally, I've seen a beneficial effect (possibly imagined?) to UVB especially sunlight and I don't want to "take the chance" that UVB may be required for my animals so I choose to use it. (Also, I have found dragons to be more colorful when exposed to natural sunlight as found by Bob Mailloux) But I still acknowledge that there is a possibility that proper supplementation could replace the need for UVB if the nuances of that issue were worked out. This however, requires the use of test subjects that (hopefully) all of us love on this forum; a very controversial subject in which the proper path is not really clear.

Wow, this has turned out long. Hopefully I did not end up saying anything offensive, I simply wanted to share my point of view.

Peter

I only wish you knew what you were talking about, It would help out alot.

Quoting from a book is fine, if you know what it is talking about.

Here is what I mean, what your saying is they are effected by the light being on them constantly.

Ok KEY WORD Constantly, that means the light is shining on them with no place to go 24/7. That is bad, but that is not what we are saying.

You seem to only be reading certain parts of what we say. Man I must be goiving the human race way more slack then I should. I thought everyone was smart enough to realize when we say choices we mean it.

We did not say they are stuck under constant light, we said they can move about a large cage. Come into the light and leave it as needed. I am sorry but my 45 watt bulb does not light up my entire cage. It lights up a portion of the cage.

Please re-read all of my posts cause you guy's still are missing alot of what I have said.

We did miss that...but you never said how big your cages are....most single dragons pets are kept in 4' x 18" x 18"....some a bit bigger and some smaller, though not recommended....it would be hard to get away from any light in that size environment.

What size tanks do you have that one end is dark while the other is lit? Are you using the 45 watt bulb shvar is talking about? Is that all you use during the day, or do you have additional lighting for daytime as well?

You actually didn't give us all the specifics...something I mentioned before....all the info is needed to portray what you are saying acurately.......makes a huge difference in how people see things, then they get the whole picture and not part so they can better understand.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Ok fair enough, I admit i may have missed somethings. But you have to understand I have been doing this for a long time. Aftyer awhile i have things that come as second nature to me. so it is easy for me to overlook things.

But please feel free to holler at me and say hey you left something out there.

I am not sure what lights shvar uses, I use just simple 45 watt halogens floods. They do not illuminate my cages more then 1/4 to in smaller ones 1/2. I use supplements over UV lights. I have found UV lights to not do anything different for me.

I believe the smallest cage I have setup is 2 x 2 x 2. Even at this size it is still possible for it to not light the entire cage. The lights are not mounted high so it shines a reall huge area. By doing this a 45 watt would not heat up a basking area enough. But it would heat the ambients to much. So you lower it until you get a surface temp for basking as you preffer. Mine are from 120-160 degrees. I offer plenty of hides. So again they can get out of the light not just the heat. They can do this by burrowing or not burrowing.

Well....now with that set-up I can see how it works....I use MVB's and lots of supplemental high CRI bulbs for light intensity, so that's really not an option for my tanks though, but also my house it hot enough during the day here, I need the cool, no lights on nights here in Arizona, would think in the summer there you would too, lived in WPB for a couple of years myself, summers are warm....so they aren't really in light all the time, just have a lighted area....big difference there.

I'm glad you clarified....yes....I understand when it's second nature from doing something a long time, it's easy to not say something that would be important for others to know....lol....been there done that....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Wow did we just agree??????

Wow that took forever for me to clarify. Next time i will just invite you over and you can see the cages hahaha would of been faster. Again sorry for not putting it all on there, i thought i did. But when you asked me that I realized my error. Again anothe reason why I do not like putting up caresheets saying I do this or that, if I forget something it looks horrible.

Oh yes it is hotter then well you know what here in summer, and not much cooler in winter. Thats why my animals are on my back screened in porch. In winter the screen is covered, in summer i open it all up and kick on the fans. The only thing that changes is a few degrees in basking site, and a few degrees in the cool end. This is a few degrees warmer by the way. But nothing so drastic they can't cool off.

It's the high humidity here that gets ya hot though not the dry scorching heat you have where your at. I'd have to change something if i was there.

Yep....I have to have misters on parts of my outdoor ackie and tegu cages.....they would dry out too much without them....my uros love the dry heat, but they were made for it.....they do have a moist area to burrow, but they rarely do.....

I see...you are lucky enough to cage them all semi-outdoors, not heating up your house....too cold here in the winter and to hot in the middle of the summer here for the dragons....115-120 is just too intense for them....and then it doesn't cool off at night either....only going down to 90-95 some nights....the malis, ackies and tegus don't seem to mind but they burrow at night to cool off too....I have a dirt outdoor set-up for the beardies.....they don't burrow....they'll go in the hides when it's hot, but they don't dig to cool down.....so it's too hard on them with the constant warmth.....I tried a few, they all lost weight and just didn't "seem right", brought them back in and they turned around, so I knew the heat was too much for them, though they'd been out since spring to get gradually used to the warming temps.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Frank Retes has several monitors that have during their entire life in captivity spent it with the 24/7 basking availability. "George" his oldest male Lace monitor is 23 years old, his original mate "Gracie" died after thousands of multiclutched eggs, she was over 17 if I remember correctly. He has the first pairs of ackies that were bred in this country period still alive and producing generation after generation. His banded whitethroats are over generation 10 I believe, the original pair again still popping them out, I dont know how old they are but 12 is accurate to suggest. He has many many other examples in Arizona at Goanna Ranch that are 12-20 years of age. Ask him anytime he is always glad to post pics of them, beautiful awesome animals.
I spoke with Rob Faust a while back (few months ago), who gave his big blackthroat pair away (the female that holds the record with 52 eggs laid and hatched for that species), theyve been around for many years in a garage under 24/7 basking conditions, hes been breeding monitors for many years, now everything lives outdoors.
There are many others who have been doing this for 15 years in our wonderful hobby with absolutely no ill effects. These are reptiles not mammals or birds, which both have their "clocks" set by day to night cycles, even they survive the arctic and anarctic with 6 months of day then night, but among mammals it shows mental effects after 6 months of no day light, not visaversa.

when ever something new comes along i wait for awhile to see how it does....to make sure there isn't really any problems.
then as i did with the dirt substrates i consider the benefits and the possible problems. when i looked at the dirt substrate i saw, greater humidity, less dehydration, better activity, and happier animals. i also saw that possible chance of (in uros) tail rot, respritory infections, and thats it! the possible chance of this was low...and i felt that tyhe benefits far out weighed the downsides, so i started down the long road of testing my substrate. after i finally found one that i liked....i waited and still gathered more info.

then once i was satisfied with the amount of research, i finally put it to use and monitered my uromastyx very carefully. i monitered weight, activity, and food intake. which i noticed went steadily up.....way faster than i've seen in my uromastyx ever. he looked much better ate much more, and actually wasn't afraid of me anymore (uros are very skittish for those of u who don't know) he nowactually watchs me to see what i'm doing.

i was/am so happy with the results that i don't think i will ever switch back over to the dry substrate.

this is just a case of trying new methods of husbandry. which you have to be very careful when doing so and moniter their health carefully.

i usually have my beardies housed on part playsand part repticarpet substrate...but cuz my female is laying i changed out her substrate to a moist sand/peat/vermic substrate that is moist....which was a new concept that i wanted to try for my beardies. i was unsure of the benefits/risks, but i went ahead. i have never seen my girl so active or so hydrated.....usually she needed to be given drops of water from a dropper and everytime you would offer them she would drink lots, now she doesn't even take any!!!! i have noticed too that she's putting on weight and doing much better.

although i started with a all moist sub...i now have it have moist have dry so she can decide where she wants to be....well, she spends her time on the moist stuff....only goes over on to the dry stuff to basks then comes back to the humid area.

although some people apparently got "knocked" for trying new techniques i think using new techniques and so on is a great think....and will advance our overall herp keeping successes.

these are just my findings and should not be tried just cuz i said they worked for me. for you it may be very different......do your research and learn all you can about the benefits and drawbacks and make your own conclusion. a good place to gain info about the moist dirt mix would either be searching the history of the uro forums for dirt substrates or going to www.proexotics.com and reading about their findings and suggestions.

oh, heres a pic of vlad who i was talking about.

trevor

As you may have read above, the substrate had the opposite effect on my malis. They are much more skittish now, but it's all good.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

n/p
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Trevor Bennett
E-mail: yruemailinme15@yahoo.com
yahoo SN: yruemailinme15
location: Salem, Oregon

Well said georgio.

I have been watching the debate over the weekend and a couple of commnents keep coming to mind; They were directed a me from one of the more vocal individuals in this weekends debate:

[Everybody has a right to thier own opinions. . . EVERYBODY!!]

and

[People can tell for themselves what is true - you don't have to point it out for them.]

Neither one is verbatim, but you get the picture.

If I had to weigh in I would agree with georgio that there are many ways of doing things. Granted, there are some laws of nature (ie - dragons can't breath water so a fully aquatic tank would not work for one) and laws of mankind (ie - animal cruetly or FDA drug laws) that must be followed, but within those laws there is lots of wiggle room. Husbandry is such a complex set of interrelated factors that there simply is no one right way to do things; only simpler or more intricate ways; the exact techniques have to be tailored to the individual.
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Russ

"Husbandry is such a complex set of interrelated factors that there simply is no one right way to do things; only simpler or more intricate ways; the exact techniques have to be tailored to the individual."

Yes, you are right on the mark. Those individual techniques are what should be shared on this forum, without threads turning into a sludge fest. I should not matter if it is a newbie reading it or a seasoned breeder. The information that is presented here is for all to read.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

"I should not matter if it is a newbie reading it or a seasoned breeder."

I think it's important that if you are going to give out advice to a newbie that it be advice that has been proven successful by a large number of keepers, not simply by your experience or the experience of just a few others.

You have to take into consideration a few things. One being the ability for a newbie to recognize signs of problems with their animals. Another being the intial experience the newbie has with their animal. What if this newbie decides to take your advice and you happen to forget to mention a small but important detail about your husbandry? Now this newbie has a sick dragon and 95% of what he reads says he should be doing something completely different than what you have advised. So this newbie starts to panic and what was supposed to be a good experience has turned into an awful situation.

I'm not against experienced people trying different practices of husbandry but those people know what to look for and have an understanding about the behavior of their animals. Those people understand the difference between ambient and surface temps, the reasons why a dragon may show different colors, what the feces should look like, how a beardie should appear alert while basking, what sunkin eyes look like among other subtleties that a newbie may not pick up on right away. I just think it is a foolish thing to do to suggest to a newbie something that has not been advised and proven by the majority of successful keepers. Advice that can be backed up by multiple sources to give the newbie some confidence he/she is doing things the right way for his animal.

I remember not too long ago how easy it was to go into a panic and lose sleep because I was unsure I was doing something right. When I researched something it was comforting to see what I was doing had worked for so many. How difficult do you think it is to make a mistake simply because of the lack of confidence of what you are doing? Not very.

If you are going to give advice to newbies suggesting things that are not the norm please try to take these things into consideration. Try to think about how you felt when you got your first reptile and were paranoid about it's care, knowing your decisions dictated the health and happiness of the animal you loved and were completely responsible for. It's tough enough to weed through all the different advice so why add to it? It's just not fair to put newbies or their animals into that kind of situation.

Why not leave that kind of advice for people who are able to recognize and handle the different problems that may occur and have some experience under their belt?

Please also take into consideration this is coming from someone who has just recently gone through, and still is, that period of being a newbie. I can imagine it's easy to forget what that's all about once you've been into it for years.
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Rob Talkington

I remember still that trepidation, and I still have it to some extent when I acquire a new species, though I've been at it for years.....

I usually research before acquiring any new species very well and still find I have many questions as I go along as well.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

"...or put lights on my other reptiles 24/7 to know it increases agression, over stimulating hormone production, stress and a host of other problems, there are plenty of studies already on it."

How were these studies conducted? Were they allowed the option of removing themselves from the light source...i.e. hide spots? I have been searching pubmed and google and cannot find the types of studies you mention. I know they are there, I have just not found any that suggest danger in providing a 24 hour basking area with hides in a cage. Other than what you have posted, could you offer a link or reference to a good example of what has been claimed as a negative side effect to doing so?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

I know you aren't talking to me Aztec....lol....that's funny how when things get deleted, others things seem out of context.....lol
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Yeah, your right. I don't know why they got rid of that...lol. Well, I hope she can answer my question.

>>I know you aren't talking to me Aztec....lol....that's funny how when things get deleted, others things seem out of context.....lol
>>-----
>>Tracey
>>Tracey's Beardies
>>www.beardiecrazy.com
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

n/p
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com