Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I need to get a new(bigger) cage for my new Crested Gecko, Kirby. His current cage is one I got in Japan, made by a company called Vivaria and has sliding doors and is very nice, but too short. It's only about 14" tall. Everything I'm reading tells me he needs at least 24" tall. I've seen the screen cages sold by SCALES, which seem nice, but are they good for crested geckos? I like that you have total access to the cage since most of it opens in the front. Would the 16x16x24 be good for an adult or pair, or should I go for the next size up, 18x18x36?

How about others you can buy locally, like at Petco/Petsmart? I'm thinking one of those stores sell Lizard Lounges and other types. Lastly, how about Barrs.com cages. I saw some at the BWI show when he was here. I also have a friend who has one and likes it.

What recommendations do you have? Thanks.

-----
Rob Jenkins
http://herpcam.com

Just get an appropriately sized rubbermaid. Cresteds aren't display animals and don't really need those expensive custom cages. Theres nothing that works better for less $ than a good ol 'maid.

I've got around 40 geckos in racks right now and I'd like to watch this one, so I'd like something I could see him in. Thanks for the quick reply.
-----
Rob Jenkins
http://herpcam.com

hi, well 24" would be tall enough and maybe even enough for a pair, but i would keep a pair or even 1,3 in an 40" tall enclosure.
i hate those plastic containers, they look bad and i cant imagine the geckos like them. and why arent cresteds display animals? mine has tons of hidingspots but loves to sleep open in plants, i call it freestyle sleeping and its great fun to watch.

as i am not from the states i cant tell you about the cages at petsmart&co i use an 20"x20"x40" glass enclosure with vented top and at the bottom of the front.

Uhhh, I don't know about the rubbermaids where you all come from, but all of mine are perfectly see-through. I can watch my animals all I want. I also don't think its a matter of the animals 'liking' the cages, just waht meets their needs. If you wanna go all out and buy custom cages, go for it, but I don't see the need for it when you can get a perfect cage for 2-4$ @ Wal Mart.

so tell me for example how tall your rubbermaids are?

Sometimes I dress her up like a librarian, and this one time, Oh wait, you meant the rubbermaid containers. Nevermind...
-----
Sam
Gecko Den
Email Me

nt

Rob,
Hey I personally am short on space so my guys are in the racks pictured (made them myself ). They are also a lot easier to clean; since they are light I just carry them over to the tub for a scrubbing. Viewing them is like looking through a cloudy window, you can see but it’s not perfect. For what you want I would recommend a glass tank. This way you can see from all sides. The barr cages are really nice, but only the door is see-through, the rest is white pvc I believe. You can use screen too but I think it’s more obstructive then the Rubbermaid’s. But that’s my personal opinion, I just get annoyed looking through it…lol. A 20 gall tall is fine for a pair; a 29 gallon would be perfect though. I give each one of my guys 15 gallons of space. Only single animals are housed in those Rubbermaid’s year round. They are only introduced for a month during the breeding season then are separated till the following year. Best of Luck.
-Mike

Mike, I'm surprised you suggested these. If you use glass tanks, you'll have a b*tch of a time keeping up humidity (I sure as hell did). After a few bad sheds I switched to rubbermaids and have never looked back.

It is just as easy to keep the humidity up in a glass cage, as it is a plastic one. They are the exact same thing; both only allow the escape of humidity through its top (if it’s screened). Screened cages are the ones you have the trouble with. Besides you do not need to keep it up that high anyway. Ambient room humidity and a light daily spraying is all you need. During the winter or if you live in a really dry area you might need to spray a little more. But that's pretty much it.
-Mike

If you use a glass cage..how do you secure the branches, logs etc for the cresty to climb on? Is it alright to just prop them against the walls of the cage or is there a chance they will roll around?

OK, Mike......but I live in a naturally humid area (the Ohio Valley) and when I used glass tanks it was almost impossible to keep the humidity above 30 % even with nightly mistings. Rubbermaids are IMHO the perfect cage for cresteds....cheap, easy to clean, practical, light, etc.

I do agree with you Rubbermaid’s are the easiest to use, that’s for sure . In Rob’s case tho he wants to see the animal more clearly, which is why I recommended the glass. I personally can’t stand screen cages (claws can get stuck, pain to clean if you have a lot of them, crix can chew through the mesh ones, etc), but that is just my personal preference. They work fine if you like them (we have one of ours in one).

Anyway there should be no reason why you can’t get the humidity up in a glass cage. It was most likely the lid you where using. If you cover some of the screen lid with plastic wrap you can easily regulate the humidity with how much you cover. Cover it all and you can hit 100% no probs. 30-40% is all you should really need anyway. If you go higher make sure things dry out within an hour or so, otherwise you risk bacterial and mold growth.

LdyPayne I criss cross two branches corner to corner for the cresties. Our day geckos also just cross corner to corner. Cork bark is then just placed over. No need to secure if you cut them to the right size they are not going anywhere . Only time you need to secure is if you are going horizontal because they will slide against the back or front of the cage.
-Mike

Thats cool, Mike. I don't want you to think I was arguing with you, just offering my experience (even if it is somewhat limited, lol). I'd take your word about cresteds over ANYone else's.

hi, i mist my cage twice a day and the humidity never drops below 70%.
i think those rubbermaids are unworthy of those great geckos. thinking of they are arboreal creatures and keeping them in flat plastic makes me kinda sick ...
here in europe we even have the law that those geckos (a pair 1,1)have to be kept in at least 24"x24"x32" containers ...
its impossible to give them at least a nearly natural environment in those containers you promote.

sorry i really dont mean to argue but thats just my opinion

I'm no detective but I know BS when I see it.....a law for cage dimensions for crested gecko?!?! Do you think we're stupid or somethin? Cut this crap out. If you don't like rubbermaids, don't use them, but I hate to break it to ya.....ALL cages are made of some 'flat' surfaces. Sorry, but that post was so stupid I HAD to laugh.

hehe call me what you want, but we have animal protection laws over here, and if you dont believe me go to http://www.verbraucherministerium.de/tierschutz/reptilien/reptilien-inhalt.pdf

do a little search for rhacodactylus what means if you even know the real name of the animals you are keeping and somewhere you will see something like 6x6x8 what means the dimensions of the cage needed 6x means 6 times the bodylength of the animal without its tail.

look i dont care if you keep your animals in plastic containers, it makes no difference if plastic or glass but you should at least know that you have arboreal creatures and no damn leopard geckos and so the container should be tall not flat.

Oh, they're arboreal? Well no sh*t, sherlock! I don't keep mine in a horizontal cage, but one that is evenly vertical & horizontal, there is planty of climbing space. You must think we're stupid or somethin....the way you communicate your opinion makes ME SICK. Jeez, your way is not the ONLY way to do things, just a different one.

so why arent you still laughing about me and the bs i am talking? might it be, that there are laws in other countries? well, your way of becoming personal only shows you aint got any arguments, so there is no use for further talking with you ...

wish you a nice day

Hmm...do you have an english version of that link you posted above? I checked out the site out of curiosity and it is in German or some similar language.

You can get rubbermaid containers that are two feet deep. I just haven't seen any that are clear but that could just be in my area. Though I don't think I would keep an adult crested gecko in a rubbermaid container when I can spend a little extra for an aquarium of the right dimension for maybe $20 more than the rubbermaid container or less if I get it used. THe glass acquarium certainly look better than Rubbermaid. I would use rubbermaid or similar for baby cresteds though, especially if I have a fair bit of them.

hi, sorry i dont have the link in english, and because its a pdf autotranslators wont work. perhaps if i have a little time, i can translate it for you.

i totally agree with the rest of what you said

Well this is a public forum and you are welcome to your opinion. I actually do agree with you a pair should be kept in the dimensions you recommended. I keep my adult cresteds singly each in their own 15-gallon cages, while a lot of people house pairs in that size and 20’s. So they have plenty of room and are not bothered by any cage mates.

There is nothing wrong with plastic cages; it’s just your preference. I personally love them because they are light weight, easy to clean, can’t shatter like glass, and no screen for nails to get caught in(rhacs are heavy geckos). It would be a pain to carry over 3 dozen 30 gallon glass tanks to the tub to wash or scrubbing screens. So it saves me a lot of time and money. However if you don’t have that many animals, it’s no big deal. Anyway point being there is nothing wrong with it. Please feel free to voice your opinion but don’t tell me that the way I keep my animals makes you sick. I keep and treat them way better then most.
-Mike

look, as i mentioned before it makes no difference if you keep them in plastic or glass containers, its only the dimensions that matter.
i think there is just a main difference in herp-keeping between the states and europe. here in europe we try to give the animals a surrounding as natural as possible. what means natural substrate, natural plants and so on ...
sterile cages are more than uncommon here, because we believe that for example kids that never run around through the woods eat dirt and so on, dont develope a good immune system. (whats prooven btw)
and its the same thing with reptiles. what doesnt mean, that you dont have to clean the cages ...

i am damn sure you know a lot about cresteds, but you should also know that they are arboreal and that they need to have the possibilty to climb, and thats what they dont really have in a 12" tall rubbermaid.
there are a few more things that most people here in europe wouldnt do, for example bowl-feeding. the cresteds dont have to hunt down their food anymore, what combined with a relativly small container, plus little climbing possibilties, plus beeing kept alone leads to a lack of attraction, what leads to slowly-acting animals. (of course for keeping cresteds all year long together you need a very large enclosement, so they can leave each other alone, plus i do understand that its better for breeding to keep them alone, and only pair them up, once a year)

i really dont mean to say, you are doing everything wrong, and you treat your animals bad, because i know you care a lot about them beeing fine, perhaps its just the different philosophies between europe and the states ...

Yeah it is def difference of region . But it really is a matter of what they need and what we think they need. If we were talking about wild caught animals I would agree with you. But these are captive bred animals; they do not need natural surroundings (substrate, real plants, vines, ground litter, large areas etc) in order to feel “comfortable”. They were not plucked from their native homes and shipped half way across the world. A single crested gecko can thrive in a 24”x18”x13” cage just as well as a larger one. My guys are very active during the night in both roaming and bee lining to their bowls when they see me put crix in (ever see the video I posted?), def not a lethargic animal. I use the bowls as a preventive measure so the crix can’t hide (an accumulation of which can stress out an animal if you don’t notice they are there) and I can also observe if they are eating well or not. If you have loose substrate it will also prevent accidental ingestion of it. But like you said different countries different ways .

Keeping them alone really leads to an increased attraction not lack. Since the male hasn’t seen one of his own kind all year he immediately takes the opportunity to copulate. It is something I have been doing a long time with many species (not all) and it works great. Also reduces competition (some are faster hunters then others) and stress from cage mates. If the cage is large enough however like you mentioned groups can do quite well. Anyway like I said in the previous post neither method is wrong, it’s just preference on the keepers part. So please don’t make accusations that anyone is, save it for the people who actually keep their animals in bad conditions and try to help them. If you want to discuss anything more just drop me a line. It is interesting to know the way things are done in other parts of the world.
-Mike

hi mike, with lack of attraction i didnt mean the males or females arent attracted to each other anymore, i meant that keeping them alone might make them "bored" without any "drive". i think that even reptiles that were born in captivity, still are wild animals.

but after all everyone of us is responsible for his own animals, and everybody has to care for them his own way. btw i have great respect of your work and advice =)

but there is one more thing , there was a thread if cresteds need light to hunt down crix, and your answer was no. i really do think that they need some kind of weak light to hunt. cresteds eyes work like light collectors and capture small amounts of light, but without any light, they are as blind as we are, of course they still can smell very good, but i doubt that they can hunt crix by their smell. what do you think?

Cresteds are nocturnal...their eyes are designed to see well in very dark conditions....it gets dark at night sometimes, ya know. I highly doubt their eyesight is comparable to ours, especially in the dark. In the wild there is some light (the moon) but I don't think they would be blind if say it was cloudy or really dark out.

this makes sense to me.........

There are no animals that can see in total darkness to my knowledge (well except man with infrared goggles...but that's completely different). Most animals that live in such an environment either produce their own light or are blind and use other senses to hunt. Though I am no expert on the abilities of gecko eyes, I suspect they either collect enough light to see at night from stars, moon phospherescent plants etc. It is also possible they see at night by motion and/or sound. Owls hunt at night using a combination of sight and sound to locate their prey. Crickets do make a fair bit of noise (and I dont' mean the males singing for a mate) when moving around so I can see animals hunting them by the little noises they make as they move around.

Another posibility is that crested geckos hunt in the twilight just before full dark and as the sun starts to light up the sky, giving enough light for light enchancing eyes to see clear as day to hunt. During the darker times of full night, they may see enough shapes to jump from branch to branch etc. but may find stationary crickets harder to spot.

It would certainly be interesting to have an indepth steady done on the hunting habits of crested gecko and their vision capabilities.

hi, i get my info from books of henkel/seipp and other authors. i didnt want to compare the geckos sight to ours, just like you, i think they need a weak source of light (like moon, stars etc), and that they are not able to hunt in total darkness, for example in rooms in the cellar without windows ...

Of course you need light to see . Without light all matter in the universe would essentially be invisible to us. In order to visualize an object photons have to strike it, bounce back and hit our eye. I am sure you have heard of rods and cones, right? They are two types of specialized cells at the back of animal’s eyes. Cones give us color vision, while the highly sensitive rods allow us to see in the dark. Rods are actually 10,000x more sensitive to light then cones. Basically allowing them to detect single photons. (Although I believe the neurons only fire when a certain amount hit within a specific period of time, have to check on that one.) Now diurnal animals have no need for lots of rods because they sleep at night so evolution has paid more attention to their cones. Nocturnal animals are the opposite. So with more rods at the sensitivity above these animals can resolve images in very low light conditions. So some island on a moonless night is no problem, there is always some light around; we humans are just not sensitive enough to utilize it. The same goes for our gecko room in the middle of the night, regardless if it has windows or not (photons are every where). So pertaining to the original post, no crested geckos do not need supplemental light sources at night; nature has given them built in night vision .

For your last question cresteds can not hunt crix by smell, it’s not that well developed as say a monitor or snake. But they can easily locate a piece of ripe fruit that has fallen to the ground and split open in the wild .
-Mike

Oh I beleive a crested can find ripe fruit..even us sense blind humans can smell over ripe fruit within 5 feet or so. Heck in the case of bananas, can smell them 100 feet away hehe.

As for cones and rods, I do remember humans have more cones along the edges of our eyes which explains why our night vision is best at the corner of our eyes. The colour detecting rods are cententrated in the center of the eye. I expect nocturnal animals have rods throughout their eyes with a few cones for colour (depending on species).

From personal experience I can state that on a cloudy night it is very very dark in the woods, so dark that you can't see your hand in front of your face. However, humans have very poor nightvision compared to animals that live in the dark. Insects can see in the infrared spectrum (or is that ultraviolet...can't recall) which humans cannot see in at all. SOme animals may use the same technique to give them much clearer vision at night. Others can pick up the weakest ray of light to see with pupals that open very wide and since nocturnal animals have larger eyes their pupals can get quite huge in comparison to diural (day active) animals.

Man you guys really give me a workout with some of these questions….lol.

Ciliatus,
Regarding the cellar I answered that in my post ………..

“The same goes for our gecko room in the middle of the night, regardless if it has windows or not (photons are every where). So pertaining to the original post, no crested geckos do not need supplemental light sources at night; nature has given them built in night vision.”

LdyPayne,
You are right but I think you got mixed up here….

“I do remember humans have more cones along the edges of our eyes which explains why our night vision is best at the corner of our eyes.”

Cones are actually highly concentrated at the back center parts of our eyes while over 100 million rods encircle them (cones number around 5 million in humans). Like posted previously nocturnal animals have even more rods and less cones. Since the rods are on the outer edges we can see much better at night with our peripheral vision. So that was a great observation on your part . The same goes for motion tracking. Since rods can detect single photons it makes them very good at noticing the slightest changes. Again it’s better in our peripheral. Nocturnal animals however who have a wider distribution of rods can bring objects in to focus and still clearly see the object at night and track it. Making our cresteds very good hunters in low light conditions.

Although as you pointed out there are other means of hunting at night. Insects use UV. Then pit vipers for example have heat sensing pits near their lips. This in effect gives them infrared vision (ever see the movie predator?). The animal sees high contrasting colors and very easily picks out a hot red mammal from a cool blue background. The image is very very low resolution and lacks detail, but you can’t miss the target. That teamed up with their sense of smells make them the ultimate night time hunter. Crested geckos are not as high up on the ladder and depend on movement to target live prey. Their sense of smell is not as great either, prob more on the par with ours. Not to hard to locate rotting fruit on the forest bottom .
-Mike

Hi Mike,

As ciliatus mentioned, I'm always learning from your posts. However, I think I have to correct you on this one (never thought I'd say that).
I (obviously) am no expert on rhacs, but I do know about night vision in other animals. Owls for example, which were mentioned, are probably the best example of a nocturnal hunter. Amaazing night vision - no one can dispute - also completely blind in total darkness. As long as they have minimal light - the small bit of light from moon and stars coming through clouds or bouncing off other sources - they can see. But in a closed room with no light on - BLIND. They bump into all kinds of things and it's quite evident they can't see.

Bats are the only ones that can "see" - and much like the pit viper, is using different means to do so, mainly, echolocation. So I'm afraid our little rhacs are blind in a room with no windows and no light. If the room has a window though - I'm sure enough light from the moon and stars will bounce around for them to hunt. Then again, as LdyPayne mentioned, they may use their hearing to hunt/assist in the dark. Guess it depends just how close that cricket is to their nose.

Mr F.

I have been staying out of these debates lately, but I agree with you. This is why I keep a night light in my Rep room which is located in a basement room without windows. I've been doing this with my leopards long before I kept Rhacs.
good post.
-----
Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Long time no see . Why don’t you try turning off the light one night and see what happens. If anyone eats then we know their eyes are sensitive enough. I used to keep some leos in a windowless room in my basement. I did have a night light in there eventually for my own purposes but before I did everybody was eating well. I assumed it would be the same for the Rhacs, but like I said going to have to try it and find out . I do suggest the night light (in a windowless room) for the hell of it though just to make it that much easier for them.
-Mike

Honestly, If I shut the night light off, I'm sure the would see the food. The room is sectioned of from the other half of the basement. Light can get through from the other side from under the door and parts of the wall where I had to piece meal the sheet rock. I have the night light just to creat a moonlight type of feel. I think the idea is that in a room that allows no light at all in, nocturnal animals that rely on sight primarily are in the dark, so to speak.

-----
Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Mr F.
Hey thanks for the reply . I do make errors so please feel to correct me if you notice something, it’s impossible to know everything in the field…lol. I was merely making and educated assumption based off the rods sensitivity to single photons. They wouldn’t be the best and most accurate hunters in a closed windowless room, but they could get around based off info I have learned. However I have not actually ever experimented with it, although now I am kind of intrigued by how off they would be. I am going to have to move one of the cages in a closet and seal up the bottom or something. Presently they all get ample amounts of light through an open window. Anyway thanks for the input, really appreciate it .
-Mike

hi mike
well ok, i agree that there is always light in nature, no matter if its a cloudy night or not, but what about my example, the cellar-room without any light-sources?
that would be def. darker than what the geckos eyes are designed for, right?
as for the geckos ability to see the light of photons i got to trust you, cause i cant proove the opposite

I have found screen caging to work really well. I used to use rubbermaids, but like to view mine as well. After I switched to screen, my males seemed to start "calling" more frequently. Humidity can be a liitle dry in the winter, but I mist twice daily and have had no issues with sheds, etc.
-----
Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

I'm going to try to find the Lizard Lounge Model 45 at a local pet store. It is 24½ x 18½ x 25¼, so should be good for Kirby and if I get him a girlfriend someday(I love eggs and babies, so probably will eventually). I like the design because it is glass in the front and back and screen doors on the sides. I couldn't find one tonight, but I did see the larger version, which is nice, but pricey.

Thank you for helping out.
-----
Rob Jenkins
http://herpcam.com

I keep my cresties in cardboard boxes with shards of glass everywhere. Also for a food source i give them clumpy milk and for extra assurance i tuck in a playboy for their enjoyment

WTF was that?
-----
Rob Jenkins
http://herpcam.com

a joke

I never get jokes or sarcasm on the forums. I'll have to take that language class next. Thanks for clarifying for me.
-----
Rob Jenkins
http://herpcam.com

understandable. It isn't always easy to spot sarcasm or humor with text alone. Sometimes smilely faces or 'j/k' or similar acrynoms are used to indicate when one is expressing humor (or other emotions for that matter).