Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

ALL WHO KEEP HL INDOORS PLEASE READ

kw53 Mar 08, 2004 11:13 AM

I post this because the technique I describe was news to me. Apologies to all who have known about it all along, or figured it out themselves. I have had failures with captive herps in the past, at times, I suspect, perhaps due to heat creep. I hope that all who keep warm-weather herps can benefit.

I was visiting the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum a while back, and talked to one of the keepers about keeping HL in indoor cages. They found that the HL would do well initially, then decline. Like many of us, they were using a heat source at one end of the cage, but what was happening, and I suspect it's happening in many home setups, is the heat would creep the the unheated end of the cage and the entire cage would become uncomfortably warm. HERPS NEED TO BE ABLE TO ESCAPE THE WARMTH OF BASKING TEMPS AND GO SOMEPLACE WHERE IT IS DOWNRIGHT COOL. Once a herp has achieved its desired temp, it goes off to live the rest of its life--it doesn't like to be hot all the time. A properly heated herp carries the heat from its basking period around for some time, using it to conduct business, then goes back to re-heat when it runs low, but it NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO GET INTO AIR THAT IS COOLER THAN BASKING TEMPS.

The Desert Museum solved this problem by venting the end of the cage where the heat source was located and installing a fan to SUCK THE HEAT OUT OF THE CAGE AT THE SAME END AS THE HEAT SOURCE. The result is that the herp gets its heat from radiant energy via the heat source rather than from hot air that has built up under the heat source. This is just how it works in nature. The air under the heat source was the same temp as the air at the cool end of the cage, since it was being drawn from the cool end, but the substrate was warmed by the lamp, and the HL were warmed by the lamp.

After initiating this procedure, the Desert Museum noticed a profound improvement in the health, feeding, and behavior of the HL that were held in indoor cages. A cage of sufficient length must be used for this system to be effective. I would think 36 inches and up in length would be necessary.

The staff at the Museum also noticed that HL were intimidated by being sprayed directly with water to drink, and that a better drinking response was obtained by spraying the ceiling of the cage and allowing the water to drip onto the HL. They speculated it was more like natural rain that way.

While I applaud the fabulous success of captive breeding in recent years (I go back to the days when nothing was cb), and I'm grateful for the great diversity and availability of quality cb herps, I'm not a supporter of keeping HL or other wc herps in cages; I don't accept the human tendency to make backhanded assumptions about the psyche of reptiles, and to dismiss the possiblity that they find captivity to be dismal. Cb herps are, in my own backhanded assumption, less likely to miss their freedom than wild caught. However, if the hobby and science of herpetology is to have founder stock for future generatons of cb animals, that founder stock will have to be wc. Please consider the info in this post as you set up housing for your herps, as it may be just what's needed to help you turn the last corner to success, and give your captives a bit better life.

Replies (5)

Crotaphytuskidd Mar 08, 2004 11:50 AM

Hello,
great information. It made a me a bit curious
however. I house all my animals in outdoor pens,
I try to simulate their natural habitat as best I can,
since I live less than 10 miles from their original
homes. They will hide when they get too warm, or just to get away from shadows, but do you think they could also get
too hot, whether or not they hide? The shade temp on a
hot Apple Valley day is probably 80's at least....
Well, just curious. Thanks a lot for the info though.

Yours,
Phil

kw53 Mar 08, 2004 03:45 PM

It may seem like it's in the 80's to a large animal like a human, who can't really experience microhabitat climates, but to herps and other small animals adapted to live in the world, there are places and ways to escape heat or seek it. A few inches below the surface, it's several degrees cooler, and below the surface in shade, cooler still. Outdoor pens are the way to go when possible. One thought re: pens, though. I worry that lizards, with their penchant for territories and their native lifestyle--under the open sky--might find the walls of a pen depressing. If I was keeping lizards in a pen, I'd mound up the dirt and rocks in the center of the pen, away from the walls, so the lizards could climb to the top of the heap and have a view over the walls--gives the experience of distance and openness.

For those who keep Collared Lizards and others where the males are too aggressive to be housed in the same pen, two adjacent pens would give the males a view of each other and might stimulate competitive breeding with the females living with them.

Of course, wouldn't it be swell if we all had that kind of space? Not me. Mmmmpphh.

Crotaphytuskidd Mar 09, 2004 11:49 AM

Hello again,
Thats an interesting point
about the depression effect walls of a pen might have
on a formerly free individual. Since I'm about to do some routine maintenence on their pen soon, i.e. weeding, cleaning
feces, and rock/wood re-arrangement, I'll keep that in mind and maybe move those platform rocks I have a little towards the middle so they can look out. To your original point,
I have indeed noticed my HLs taking cooling off measures.
They often bury themselves underneath the rock cavern, or hide
under the leaves of the plant I have in there. I hope
that my guys will continue to fare well in my pen.
Thanks for the insight.

Yours,
Phil Clevinger

Jeff Judd Mar 08, 2004 09:26 PM

I have found what the ASDM said to be true as well, but I use a different setup. I use a 2 FT wide by 4 ft long enclosure that is only 10 inches high. The low sides allow good ventiliation and unlimited air exchange. I tested the temperature under the heat lamps and the coolest spot to make sure there is a proper gradient. The HLS bask nearly all day in this setup. I learned the troubles of heat stress from an enclosure that was 2 ft wide by 4ft long but it was 3 ft high. The HLs constantly attempted escape and didn't bask for long periods suggesting they were too warm.

Cable_Hogue Mar 09, 2004 10:19 PM

Great info! Thanks for the post.
I had also thought about the "hill" in the outdoor cage for the same reason, and also for one other reason. Temperature regulation. If the hill is sloped and large enough it should have a somewhat shady side and a sunny side which simulates the terrain where the CHL's I have watched hang out.

One other thing I have also noticed. If you put in some bushes of some sort (indoors or out) it seems to give the HL's a sense of being hidden and they seem more relaxed.

Anyways, thanks again for the good info.
Cheers!
-----
Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

Site Tools