Reptile & Amphibian Forums

more will be on my site in the next couple days. there are about a hundred to sort through.

kind of a crappy pic, but here you all go.

male is obviously the bigger one.

andrew

The pic is ok its the set up that looks like crap for someone who cares so much about expensive monitors they sure have a crappy enclosure. Just giving my opnion put them in a trough or something the glass dont look too good with such jewels dude. dont get mad its just constructive criticism.

http://www.peaceandhealing.com/criticism/constructive.asp

Try this link it may help you to improve your posting.

Follow the steps if you want your criticism to be constructive. One of the biggest parts of that, would be offering a suggestion. Putting the Pil's in a trough may not be better than putting them in the enclosure that they're in, in my opinion it would be worse, because they wouldn't be able to see out.

Thanks for checking out the picture though, its good to have active participation.

Oscar

About whats good for monitors, your opinion and a dime will not get you a candybar.

You have little experience to go by. Yet, full of opinions, what a team you two will make.

What a better world it would be if you two would talk honestly about your monitors, you know the day to day stuff. Not only talk about what will position you in the world of varanid people.
Personally, I do not care for monitor people as a whole, there are some great exceptions. I perfer reptile people. This monitor bunch is one odd group.

Now if you want my opinion(hahahahahahaha) that setup and the male pil do not look right. That coming from the person who was the second in the world to breed that fine species, has bred them ever since and has eggs and gravid females now. Good day, F

We're not a team, I just live within 100 miles, and have a camera that doesn't have crappy drivers, and I happen to get paid to build and maintain his website.

I talk honestly about my monitors. So there's a 'check' on your list. I'm not a varanid person, let alone trying to find my rank in the varanid world. I didn't know such a thing existed. In fact, I'll tell you what I am, I'm a Father, and a Husband, first. Secondly, I have a few pets, a dog, fish, lizards, and a few snakes. I have four monitors.

Think you could answer a question for all of us? I dunno if you'll answer, my opinion is that you probably won't but why not ask.

Could you give us (the forums) a list? Not a short one either, like a spread sheet even, all the monitors you've had. List the species and about how many you've had(including live hatchings). As well as the avg clutch size, and hatch rate? Also list how many you have now, and how many enclosures you have, inside and outside. I think it would give us great insight as to how many animals you really have and why you have all of your knowledge. I'm not asking because I want to use your info against you or anything I'm honestly curious, and because I'm just trying to figure out exactly how many monitors you've seen, and my nubmers have to be wildly off when I guestimate. I'll give you an example of what I'd like to see. You don't have to, I'm just asking. Its okay if you don't want to. Please take it seriously though. Nearest 10 would be just fine, I bet you have exact records somewhere, I don't need exact numbers but round ones would work

For instance.

Total Bearded Dragons (Pogona Vitticeps) 63
Total Eggs 60
Avg Clutch Size 15
Total Clutches 4
Hatch Rate 100%
Total Bearded Dragons Currently 3

I know it will take time but I'd appriciate it. Heck it could prove to be some valuble time spent for a monitor book

Anywho have fun, I'll even take your answer via email, and not share it with anyone, I'll even sign an NDA.

Oscar

Actually I wouldn't give you the time of day. No kidding.

The others will just have to enjoy(on not) when I show pics of stuff hatching or something unusual happening. I normally show that stuff on varanus.net, rarely here. Cheers FR

What is it that I've done really to make it so you wouldn't even afford me a common courtesy?

?

So why not?

I really don't get it. I mean sure we have discussions, and sure we've debated, but if you were to ask me what time it was.. I'd tell you.

Hell if it meant alot to you and it would make a difference I'd even send you a few dollars. I'm poor, I'd even mail you some of my money even if I don't have much of any. I'd do just about whatever it was that'd help you out, even if we don't agree. If you actually needed something I could provide I'd do it.

Why? Who knows, I'd probably do it for just about anyone. I'd try to make a difference. Especially if it would help you with your monitors. Clearly you don't need my help, but if you did, I'd help you out. Like if you needed help with a webpage or something.. anything I'd do it.

However you wouldn't be bothered to give me the time. Thats interesting. There are lots of different people in the world aren't there.

Good luck Frank, have fun.

Oscar

Last year sometime.....Frank, myself, and a few others tried to help you out with your monitors, but you wouldn't listen. When your monitor(s) died, you blamed the very people who tried to help you.
You even went so far as to make strange posts on the varanus forum and harass people on the varanus chat. It took many tries, but you were finally banned (I hope).
You are what can only be classified as a wierdo.
At least that's why I'll never try to help you.

I mean really, many nice people took hours trying to help you. They offered very good information and suggestions, over and over and over. The even suggested waiting until you had more experience. Hours and hours of advice.

The fact that you had to but in on every conversation and not wait or start a conversation of your own, aside.

I am not sure you did not listen, as Rsg just said, it doesn't matter. You did not apply anything you heard. You simply let the monitor die. Which by the way, is fine, most do die. The monitor dying is not something to not like someone over. If it was, I would have no monitor friends. I would not like me.

Part of your great personality was to attack everyone who tried to help you. To a point of being banned. Then proceeded to butt in, where your not wanted, for months. You were kicked hundreds of times.

You really should see someone about that kind of behavior. Remember, our site is our private site. For you to have to be reminded to go away, time after time is very odd indeed.

You have shown me that you are not the kind of person I want for a friend or even any kind of assoiation for that matter. Please remember, that is everyones right to pick who they like. We all have that right, even you.

Food for thought, you have four monitors, have not had them do anything out of the ordinary, (burned,die,etc) yet, your giving advice and opinions on how to keep monitors. In comparision, I know more about computers then you do about monitors, but surely I would not give computer advice. The reason I don't is simple, there are plenty of folks far better to give that advice then I. You should think about that. FR

I asked quesetions, I applied what I was told to do. I seem to remember being told to put a lid on an enclosure, and take a monitor to a vet, things I did do. I didn't blame FR, I didn't blame anyone besides the man who sold the monitor to me. He took the blame for the Kimberly, and sent me a pair of ackies, the female of which died within two weeks of arriving of mysterious reasons. He didn't take the blame for that one, but then again he couldn't have replaced her either. I sorta figured it was over.

I did have a monitor burned, but who hasn't had a monitor that's been burned? Robert has a pair of peachies that got burned, he doesn't get critisized by anyone other than himself for it. I understand the mistake I made, and it hasn't been done again.

I never harrased anyone really, I simply posted again when I thought my ban was lifted, when the ban was lifted in the chat room I entered again. I didn't actually realize that I was supposed to be banned for life. For a monitor dying on me. Its not like I killed one of your animals.

Just for your knowledge RSG I'm not banned to this day, I popped in and said Hi to the boys in the chat just today. I wouldn't say my posts were anymore strange than some of the other posts that get posted. You'd think if I were really a weirdo that more people would try to help, but hey, its your progative RSG.

FR, I wouldn't say hours, certainly not you. When I was 'banned' from the forum, I had a total of 18 posts. Whoo.
Thats some serious harassment. I don't know how else to enter an IRC chat other than to say Hi. From now on I'll know to sit until I'm spoken to. Strangely enough I was never greeted, so I guess I'll just have to sit there if I ever go back.

I never said I had a great personality, I wouldn't say its bad, but I've never bragged about it. As far as I can remember you were never really helpful, OTHERS WERE, but you never really gave me any specific information about kimberlies, in fact I asked in desperation about some blood chemistry, and I couldn't get any answers.

Seeing someone about my kind of behavior, well I've got a job, and I'm married, and I have friends, and they've never really said anything about my behavior. I also had a script that auto joined all the chatrooms when i connected to IRC, so it automatically connected me to the chat, until I got around to taking it off. Didn't really bother me any to connect to your room, I figured it was okay as you didn't permenantly ban me.

I agree with you about the choice of people you like. How is it that my monitors were supposed to do something out of the ordinary? What is out of the ordinary, want one to write you an email or something? Build their own mice breeding rack? They're doing monitor stuff, I've got a lil' sav that may someday grow up to interact with my other sav. Other than that they just do the normal monitor things, bask, eat, dig, climb, that sorta stuff. The animals I picked out in person are still alive today, the two that were shipped I couldn't save.

How much advice am I giving FR that is out of my current realm of experience? I know how to feed a baby savannah, I know how to turn on some lights, and what not. Tell me which posts I've written that are OUT of this realm, if they're not discussion type posts?

I highly doubt you know more about computers than I do, especially considering it appears that you tried to ban me from two places and never managed it. I do agree you have more experience than me with monitors. However you can probably give advice about some things you've experienced with computers, like how you type, and what sort of mouse you like, and what sort of colors your prefer on your CRT.

I don't tell you what to do, and I don't think you should tell anyone else what to do either. If I were you, I would attempt to offer possible solutions to their problems. I don't think starting a sentence with.. "YOU.. " would be very constructive. Perhaps that's something to ponder.

Oscar

I think by ordinary, it was meant burns and death happen all the time to keepers of all skill levels. At least that is how I would take it.

If someone wanted to criticize me, I think killing 5 monitors in 6 months would be a better target than a couple burns.

--Robert

His problem starts with, he can't read. Or understand what he read. Or live in the real world.

Oscar if your reading this, get a life, not this one, one with no living things that keeps you away from other people, hahahahahahahaha. F

And you think I'm the one with a problem.

I really didn't intend to bring you in. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for your loses as well. I don't think it is completely your fault, as far as I know all of your critters are wild caught it appears that its a bit harder to get the w/c to stay alive as long as CB.

Good luck!

Oscar

I think it is funny how you mention that troughs are not working yet we see most people putting their monitors in them and custom making them into something better than just a glass enclosure with a stack on it. I mean these are expensive monitors and they deserve better than what the picture shows right or wrong? Even if this was a svannah I think the housing would be insufficient. Gee its funny how I was not the only person that saw this with the picture. One of the leading breeders of this species mentioned the cage was not right and neither was the male... HMMMMMMMMMMMM ..........intresting i dont need to go and look up the word dude. I think what was stated was fair and only meant to help your buddy with his enclosure so his 6 thousand dollar plus monitor doesnt fall over and die one day all of a sudden. It was meant to help, but thanks for the smartass comment on my ability to advocate a word into a sentence now you look like an ass because Im just a beginner and noticed something a very knowledgeable breeder noticed as well yet you couldnt even see it with your fancy education ?????????

happy herping

Didn't intend to say trough's don't work, I intended to say that troughs don't have windows. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The pil's seem to be happy in their enclosure. I dunno I've never observed them over long periods of time.

Flavi, if you don't like the conditions his monitors are in do something about it other than talk. If you think that he's abusing his animals report him. If you think that an expensive animal needs a better hom than a cheaper animal you need help. They all deserve the best don't they? That enclosure would be just fine for a savannah. I've got two savannahs they're in cages much like Andrew has. If they're so bad, where are your pictures to show us how to do it right??

If you want his animals to live better, why don't you send him the money to create a 10 acre peice of land with a nice facility, and a nice house and a breeding facility for feeders, and enough money that he can spend all day with his critters. I'm sure he'd appriciate it.

If you'd do some more research you'd have a better idea how much his animals are worth, and regardless you should note that any animal can drop dead at any time.

I wouldn't say I look like an ass. I wouldn't even say I have a fancy education. I DO have an education its not fancy, I got a BS, its not a phd, its not a masters, I didn't even go to a private school.

I'm not out to critique andrews cages, I figured that he'd get enough of that from everyone else here. Who rather than enjoy the pictures, and post neat things and helpful suggestions just take shots at him. Thats okay though, he told me this would happen.

Noticing things that other people notice doesn't make you smarter or more observant. It just means you saw the same thing. I think I saw it pretty well, because I took the picture, and saw fit to put it in the picture.

As for your sentence structure, I think that just about everyone could benefit from lots of english lessons, because it would enhance our ability to communicate and converse, and that my friend would end alot of confrontation, and enable us to have more of a beneficial relationship.

As for my herping, I'm actually setting my sights on goin' froggin' next time it rains. What was the last thing you herped for outside of house herpin'? That'd be a fun conversation too!

Have fun!

Oscar

"The pil's seem to be happy in their enclosure. I dunno I've never observed them over long periods of time."

Ok ill take your word for it.

"Flavi, if you don't like the conditions his monitors are in do something about it other than talk. If you think that he's abusing his animals report him. If you think that an expensive animal needs a better hom than a cheaper animal you need help. They all deserve the best don't they? That enclosure would be just fine for a savannah. I've got two savannahs they're in cages much like Andrew has. If they're so bad, where are your pictures to show us how to do it right??"

I dont think the condiotions are awful to the point of death here I think you take things to the extreme oscar. There is no need to call the humane society over it. I think the cage needed improvements what they were RSG answered and i think Frank did too. I never intended to say one was better than the other referring to the sav example I meant to say I wouldnt even put my sav in that setup thats all. I agree that they both deserve the best because they are both varanids and thats why were here for to offer the best possible resources to them. I
wish I could post pics oscar but I dont have a digi cam right now but when I do ill be happy to post pics. All i got is a 3 crosses and a goulds monitor but ill be happy to share with those that want to see.

"If you want his animals to live better, why don't you send him the money to create a 10 acre peice of land with a nice facility, and a nice house and a breeding facility for feeders, and enough money that he can spend all day with his critters. I'm sure he'd appriciate it. "

Again a bit extreme we both know that too. First off I dont have that kind of money. If I did oscar I would have the facility for myself and not for Andrew. So to state something like this is extreme and pointless.

"If you'd do some more research you'd have a better idea how much his animals are worth, and regardless you should note that any animal can drop dead at any time."

I think you need to research because the prices range from 10 grand to a pair to grand for one to 1500 look at the KS classifieds good source to know market value of animals.

"I wouldn't say I look like an ass. I wouldn't even say I have a fancy education. I DO have an education its not fancy, I got a BS, its not a phd, its not a masters, I didn't even go to a private school. "

I apologize for attacking your education I know you worked hard for it as I worked hard for mine.

"I'm not out to critique andrews cages, I figured that he'd get enough of that from everyone else here. Who rather than enjoy the pictures, and post neat things and helpful suggestions just take shots at him. Thats okay though, he told me this would happen."

If Andrew knew that he was going to get critiqued for his enclosure doesnt that tell you that he probably knew he was missing something? I mean if he was confident about it Im sure his attitude may have been different about posting the pic. He also admitted to maybe having more ventalation in some posts higher up.

"Noticing things that other people notice doesn't make you smarter or more observant. It just means you saw the same thing. I think I saw it pretty well, because I took the picture, and saw fit to put it in the picture. "

Actually boss I noticed and commented on it first. They backed up the observation with advice and facts on pils. I could not provide any insight on the husbandry of pils because I dont own any and have experience with them. RSG and Frank do. And if you saw pretty well that the enclosure isnt right arent you in agreement with Frank RSG and myslelf? "I think I saw it pretty well, because I took the picture, and saw fit to put it in the picture. " This is what you said.

"As for your sentence structure, I think that just about everyone could benefit from lots of english lessons, because it would enhance our ability to communicate and converse, and that my friend would end alot of confrontation, and enable us to have more of a beneficial relationship."

If youre looking for grammatical and spelling errors in my post I suggest you go do it somewhere else. Maybe volunteer some of this time at a school helping kids with their essays. I am not trying to write an essay I am talking this is a forum not a spelling bee. I talk here like i would talk to someone face to face. Except here we type how we talk because we have these screens imposing on the F2F conversation. Next time dont be so concerned with how a person says things, rather focus on what theyre saying.

"As for my herping, I'm actually setting my sights on goin' froggin' next time it rains. What was the last thing you herped for outside of house herpin'? That'd be a fun conversation too!"

Thats awesome never gone froggin good luck! Last week I caught a female cal king snake a 3 footer she was getting her first rays of spring sunshine. I can carry more conversation about the local fauna of california and when I move to Fl in the summer ill have way more to talk about, but thatll be in another forum or via email because its getting off topic.

Have fun!

froggin

Okay, I wasn't attacking your sentence structure I wasn't even really looking at it.

As for your animal have a friend come over I'm sure it'd be fun to share them.

If you notice most pictures that are posted by those that aren't smiled upon by Frank are typically critiqued to a fairly minute level. As far as I can tell. Not a single person so far has commended andrew on anything, no one has said a single thing was correct, or at least positive.

This criticism isn't a constructive sort of criticism. I think its great that andrew has burrows, and stacks, and a good variation in temps, and at least SOME dirt, and it seems to be performing. I think he's doing a pretty good job.

Oscar

And i hope he continues to do a good job. I never wish bad things on people because i wouldnt want people wishing bad things on me. I hope his monitors thrive and produce for him because if they do theyre healthy and happily carrying out their business of living and reporoducing.

This site is about talking monitors, answering questions, giving advice, sharing knowledge. Even if it comes out as being a critic.

It is not about patting each others backs, although you may feel free to do that, it just should not be expected.

I do not post for myself or to get praise, I post for others to learn from but maybe that is just me.

Jody is this directed to me ?

Alex

Of noone patting andrews back. Why did I post under you???

I dont know dude posting so much to andrew and oscar has driven us mad lol

later dude

I'm just saying, maybe we could talk about the good and the bad. I think it would help people not be as prone to defensive posting.

Sorry its been so busy with us Flavicross, however alot of people have been speaking directly about subjects that we can answer.

Oscar

It wasnt meant for you to take it to the heart. It was a bit of humor between Jody and I nothing intended besides that so please dont get upset about it.

i mean jesus, i certainly don't expect that here. it is of course nice to get some comments on how the monitors look but i don't expect to get great comments all the time.

i expect to learn. like learning from rsg's comments. in turn i am making a trip out to central oregon to get some better sand and am making the other changes.

this is what forums are all about. although i must be retarded, bullheaded and dumb to be on them. lol.

frank's old partner told me that forums shouldn't exist for multiple reasons i won't go into, he probably had some points.

i enjoy them though.

andrew

i meant what i wrote here (in my terms page on my site):

We also realize that our techniques are an ongoing process and not yet perfect, feel free to study other techniques for breeding and keeping monitors, we certainly do.

it is an ongoing process, and i thankyou for your inputs, it helps me grow and others.

andrew

"I mean these are expensive monitors and they deserve better than what the picture shows right or wrong? Even if this was a svannah I think the housing would be insufficient."

This isn't a comment on Andrew's monitors or their housing, but a comment on your post, flavicross. In my opinion, all animals should be given the best housing you can afford, regardless of the perceived value of the animal.

I agree Dk and like I said in the previous post to yours, i made the wrong comparison. It was wrongly stated,my opnion is that I dont think it is sufficient for a pil a sav a peahthroat etc....the list goes on as i dont think it has all the right "stuff" for a monitor. Im no expert in pils but others agreed it was not sufficient. And I made a comparison to my crosses and goulds that i keep earlier in the conversation as in relation to glass aquarium.

But if you can afford a pilbara you definatley can afford to house it efficiently. I would think. Unless you spend your load on the monitors and having nothing left to house them? Then why get them? Im sure andrew sees the faults now as he already spoke of some ventalation problems, and this is how we learn, from our mistakes.

It has nothing to do with what kind of cage they are in but what the cage provides.

i could put them in a screen enclosure, in a steel enclosure, in a melamine one, a brick one, whatever.

it is what is between the dimensions of the cage that matters.

you might learn this soon.

andrew

Mostly because I took it hehe.

I think the pilbara's are really interesting, and you can get a sort of sense as to what they are like from the picture. They're really bright red, and they're really small!! They're freaking small!!! Look at the plug in right next to the glass.

Thats really interesting to me, thats what I want to hear about.

I think the most that we could hope for would be insightful questions, and good observations from the people that are viewing these pictures. Without getting into some sort of arguement.

Lets go! Have fun, how many of you have seen Pilbara pictures?! Is this exciting to actually Andrews Pil's? I think it is.

Oscar

not what I hoped to see but pics none the less.

The only thing I would ask is why do you keep the cage so wet??

thanks jody,

i don't keep the cage so wet. it was misting day, i do it once every 3 days. the cage is now dry again as we speak. i mist because they don't drink out of their waterbowls. i don't know why.

it is something joe lewis had suggested.

andrew