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Please forgive simple questions

lucille Mar 09, 2004 08:32 AM

Actually I have kept nakes for years off and on; but my purchase of 2 boas and my 2 existing ball pythons prompted me to start reading quite a bit and now I have questions.

Frozen food: Since with 4 snakes I will need more rodents than before, I was thinking of buying frozen rats. When you buy them this way, are they like peas, easily separated, or do they stick together and if so, how does one defrost just what one needs?

Caging: I have always used aquariums but now I find that there are plastic cages meant for snakes that seem more efficient and nicer looking than aquaria. But plastic melts when it is hot, exactly (I can't picture it) how do you provide the heat source for your snakes?

Liners: There are companies here that sell precut liners made of paper. Do y'all use them? Do you like them?

Thank you ahead of time for your answers....

Replies (18)

Doug T Mar 09, 2004 08:49 AM

Frozen Rats: Good move going to frozen rats. It's easier and cheaper and just as good for the snakes. Most commercial breeders pack them kind of like sausages and they come apart very easily.

Cages: There are plenty of good cages out there. I personally like Boaphile cages, but other folks would recommend one of the other quality brands. The plastic cages I use have a heat source built right into the floor. I'd recommend that whatever cage brand and style you get, that you get the same kind for all your snakes. It'll look better and stack better.

Liners: I personally use the "universal liners": aspen shavings or newspaper. They work just fine.

Enjoy the expanding collection.

Doug T
>>Actually I have kept nakes for years off and on; but my purchase of 2 boas and my 2 existing ball pythons prompted me to start reading quite a bit and now I have questions.
>>
>>Frozen food: Since with 4 snakes I will need more rodents than before, I was thinking of buying frozen rats. When you buy them this way, are they like peas, easily separated, or do they stick together and if so, how does one defrost just what one needs?
>>
>>Caging: I have always used aquariums but now I find that there are plastic cages meant for snakes that seem more efficient and nicer looking than aquaria. But plastic melts when it is hot, exactly (I can't picture it) how do you provide the heat source for your snakes?
>>
>>Liners: There are companies here that sell precut liners made of paper. Do y'all use them? Do you like them?
>>
>>Thank you ahead of time for your answers....

Raven01 Mar 09, 2004 09:19 AM

There's so much to learn about these great animals that we keep, that I think it's a great idea to share ideas and practices with other keepers. Even simple questions have numerous personal choices that apply.

Frozen food: I purchase my rodents from RodentPro, who packages their rodents in bulk, and then vacuum seal 'feeding portions' per my feeding practices. I've never had any problem with adult prey items really sticking together (thanks to their fur) but I have found that pinkies are prone to it. Since the four animals you have are all bigger than what would require pinkies (even as newborns), you shouldn't have any problems. On the odd times that adult animals are somewhat frozen together, I've still had no problem just pulling them apart because the fur basically keeps them from sticking together but so much. Also, feeding frozen prey is more cost effective and convenient, at least in my opinion. As for defrosting, I simply place mine in a sink full of hot water (from the tap). Because of how many animals I have, I usually have to change the water a couple of times before they're all thawed.

Caging: I use a mix of cages myself - mostly Vision plastic cages, a few tanks, a few Sterlite tubs and soon to be a few homemade melamine cages. The plastic cages/tubs and melamine are much easier to heat than glass aquaria IMO, but the good old aquariums do in a pinch and are ideal for certain types/species of animals. I use either heat tape on a thermostat or a heat lamp with all my enclosures. I've not had any problem with my plastic Visions melting around the heat lamps with the exception of one - because I used too high of a wattage bulb by accident. Luckily cage and snake are both fine as it was caught relatively quickly. You can also use radiant heat panels to heat the plastic cages with no ill effects.

Liners/Substrate: I've not used any of the liners that are now on the market, though I've heard they're nice. I dare say blank rolls of newsprint paper would work just as well though. For all new arrivals, I use newspaper (cheap and easy to clean) while I pre-treat for mites - I don't take any chances and treat the snakes whether I see mites or not. In the past I've used aspen shavings (great for small collections but real time consuming for large collections). Aspen is very absorbant and looks nice though it can be messy and gets pulled out every time you take the snake out of the enclosure...at least it did with my guys. I now use old cotton sheets...attractive, very absorbant, cost effective (easily picked up in yard sales or Goodwill for just a couple of dollars a set) and are reusable. The pillow cases work great for small tubs/cages and can double as a holding bag for snakes while you clean cages. Solid wastes are shaken into the trash or commode and the sheets dumped into the washer with bleach and detergent. I like to keep two sets for every cage, so that if I have to clean all the cages at once, I have enough sheets to replace the soiled ones. It takes me a fraction of the time to clean cages now than it once did when I used aspen, plus I like the look, and the snakes seem to like crawling through the layers of the folded sheets. I can't take credit for the idea though, that came from a guy named Henry who used to frequent these forums a couple of years ago.

Hope this answers your questions.

Raven

lucille Mar 09, 2004 11:25 AM

Thank y'all for your responses. I found a nice deal on some used Neodesha cages, they should arrive next week and hopefully be a good home while I save for new larger Boaphile or Vision cages.
Another question: I have 2 pair. Do y'all keep your pairs together or separate, just getting them together to breed? Snakes do not seem especially romantically inclined, and if they would just as soon be by themselves I can accomodate them, I want whatever is best for my pets.
Thanks again,
Lucille

Raven01 Mar 09, 2004 12:30 PM

Before I answer your question, I'd like to point you to two other cage manufacturers - Moonstruck Cages (advertised in the classifieds section of this site) as well as Animal Plastics cages (link below). Both are very well made from what several of my friends who've purchased them have told me and good alternatives to Visions or Boaphiles.

As for housing arrangements, I generally recommend housing snakes separately but do ocassionally house young animals together year round myself (usually littermates). It's easier to keep exact notes when they're housed in separate cages (defecation, shed cycles, etc.) without having to guess which snake did what. Also, in the event of disease or parasites, you have the ability to contain either before it's spread to all animals in a given cage. If you do choose to house them together, it's best to only house the same species and animals of similar size together. Different species can harbor different strains of bacteria that are harmless to them but can be harmful or fatal to other species. Also large animals tend to intimidate smaller animals, causing them to be stressed and go off feed or to avoid the most optimum basking sites from fear of cagemates. That's not to say housing pairs or multiple animals in the same cage (providing it's large enough and has enough hides and basking areas) doesn't work for some people, just most of us prefer to give our animals their own space as they don't typically live in pairs or communities in the wild.

Good luck with your new boas!
Raven
Animal Plastics Inc.

lucille Mar 09, 2004 01:06 PM

I looked at the website of a local supplier who sells frozen medium rats for $2.25, and then went to the Rodent Pro website you mentioned in your previous post where they are having a special, mediums for 75 cents, you've saved me a TON of money, thank you!

Raven01 Mar 09, 2004 01:28 PM

I've tried a couple of different places for frozen rodents (with 28 snakes, I'm looking for a deal as well as quality! lol), then I found RodentPro. Their quality is great and they're also one of a few who don't require a minimum order...I can order whatever I need at the time. I've always gotten fantastic service from them, they're great people to do business with.

Raven

lucille Mar 09, 2004 03:28 PM

I'm curious, how did you end up with SO many? And how many do the rest of y'all on this forum have???

PBM Mar 09, 2004 07:47 PM

LOL!!!! Sooner than (NOT OR) later, you'll find out how addicting this hobby is, and you'll be asking yourself why don't you cut back to 28 snakes-LOL! You'll get to the point of why buy just ONE when you can get a PAIR and potentially breed them. And while your at it, why not pick up an extra male....just in case, and wait here comes a new "project" which adds a couple more animals. Then there's the new morph you "HAVE TO GET"...you pick up MORE snakes. Then your producing the previous animals and are able to turn around and purchase more animals/caging with the money you made from those babies, and next thing you know....REPTILES ARE YOUR LIFE!!!! LOL-It's a great hobby full of all sorts of people. Take care.

Paul

Randall_Turner Mar 09, 2004 08:46 PM

I currently have the following

2.2 ball pythons
1.2 anery het snow kenyans
1. flame race kenyan
.1 regular kenyan
1. pastel poss het albino bci
.1 hypo bci
1. hogg island bci
1. genetic circleback laddertail bci
.1 reg bci
1.2 Davey pastels bci
.1 albino bci
.1 het albino bci
1. ivory anery bci

so only 20 here currently..but will be adding quite a few hopefully over this year.
-----
Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
You never experience life until you have kids, then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

meretseger Mar 09, 2004 09:10 PM

By an odd coincidence, I have exactly 28 Kenyan sand boas, plus 31 other snakes, for a total of 59. I wouldn't have so many, but I breed and want to be able to offer many different sorts. That, and there are so many cute and huggable ones.
-----
Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

carl3 Mar 10, 2004 12:51 AM

1.1 Argentine boas
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.2 Green Tree Pythons
1.1 Ball Pythons
2.2 Ringed Pythons
0.1 Solomon Island Ground boa
1.1 Northern Pines
1.1 Gray Banded Kings
7.8 Corns (various morphs)
1.1 Hogg Island boas (on the way any day now)

The previous poster was right...it can be addicting but I'll always try to stay within a certain range so I don't ever have to breed rodents myself. I did research in a rodent lab in college and I'll forever have that awful smell in my mind. I use Big Cheese Rodent Factory. I've had huge success with their quality & service.

One more thing I'd like to mention that most people RARELY think about....and it's the question, "Who gets your herps if something happens to you?" I almost died around this time last year due to medical problems and it would've left my non-herp family with a lot of snakes that they fear and know nothing about. In fact, during the month or so I spent in the hospital, I lost a brazilian rainbow boa (probably due to dehydration/lack of care). Since then, I have a 'herpland security' plan just in case...but it makes me think twice before expanding my collection too much, too quick.
ps-sorry for the bad humor..just thought of it

lucille Mar 10, 2004 04:56 AM

I am glad you are better. And yes, whatever pets you have (I have quite a few birds) it is good to have a plan just in case. Hope for all of y'all on the board that the plan activation is far far in the future.
Would like to hear more from the people who haven't posted to my questions and would love if everyone would post and introduce themselves and tell about their snakes...

Raven01 Mar 10, 2004 09:02 AM

It initially started with a baby common redtail I purchased in '91 for my ex-husband (to replace his adult female that died). A year or so later, a friend went back to full-time military duty and I got his yearling female boa. Then I got a ball python (I actually purchased this one site unseen with the setup from someone who couldn't keep it any longer, only to discover when I picked him up that he was in very bad shape). I added a yearling burm later the same year so my coworker didn't get evicted (found a home for him eventually, nasty tempered fella). That was pretty much it for a while until my ex and I split up in '95. I got a rescued Colombian rainbow boa in '96 or '97 and then a pair of Dumerils boas in '99. It kinda grew from there. Most of them are juveniles that have been added in the last two years or so...species that I'd always wanted and liked, a holdback from a litter I produced and then two from my best friend's litter of boas, and some unforseen adoptions/rescues (I think I have 'sucker' of 'soft touch' written on my forehead somewhere lol). Some of them are strictly pets that I never intend to breed and some are pets that I also breed and have multiple unrelated animals so that I have diverse bloodlines in those species (8 Colombian redtails (Bci) and 5 Solomon Bevelnosed boas aka Solomon Island or Pacific ground boas). The frozen feeders make prey inexpensive enough that I can afford a larger collection (much to my other half's dismay ). I can feed 28 on the same budget as I did 8 just a few years ago - the difference being good prices for buying frozen versus buying what I needed per feeding from the pet store. Most of my animals are permanent additions to my home whether they were purchased or adopted - especially a couple I've gotten that were in really bad shape, just doesn't seem fair to let them go somewhere where their care may be uncertain after they've had such a rough start. There's a few in my collection that I might sell down the road, but that's more of a maybe than a definite. Needless to say, snakes are my passion...what can I say, I'm addicted.

Raven

3.5 Bci (Common/Colombian redtails)
2.2 Solomon Island ground boas (Candoia paulsoni paulsoni)
0.1 Santa Isabel ground boa (Candoia paulsoni paulsoni)
1.0 Colombian rainbow boa
1.1 Dumerils boas
1.0 Ball python
1.1 Coastal carpet pythons
1.0 Jungle X Coastal carpet python
1.0 Jungle carpet python
0.1 Diamond X Jungle carpet python
0.1 Albino burmese python (yearling & 5' - small for her age)
0.1 Normal phase burmese python (5-6 years old, 13')
1.1 Normal phase corn snakes
1.1 Snow corns

Raven01 Mar 10, 2004 09:08 AM

>>It initially started with a baby common redtail I purchased in '91 for my ex-husband (to replace his adult female that died). A year or so later, a friend went back to full-time military duty and I got his yearling female boa. Then I got a ball python (I actually purchased this one site unseen with the setup from someone who couldn't keep it any longer, only to discover when I picked him up that he was in very bad shape). I added a yearling burm later the same year so my coworker didn't get evicted (found a home for him eventually, nasty tempered fella). That was pretty much it for a while until my ex and I split up in '95. I got a rescued Colombian rainbow boa in '96 or '97 and then a pair of Dumerils boas in '99. It kinda grew from there. Most of them are juveniles that have been added in the last two years or so...species that I'd always wanted and liked, a holdback from a litter I produced and then two from my best friend's litter of boas, and some unforseen adoptions/rescues (I think I have 'sucker' of 'soft touch' written on my forehead somewhere lol). Some of them are strictly pets that I never intend to breed and some are pets that I also breed and have multiple unrelated animals so that I have diverse bloodlines in those species (8 Colombian redtails (Bci) and 5 Solomon Bevelnosed boas aka Solomon Island or Pacific ground boas). The frozen feeders make prey inexpensive enough that I can afford a larger collection (much to my other half's dismay ). I can feed 28 on the same budget as I did 8 just a few years ago - the difference being good prices for buying frozen versus buying what I needed per feeding from the pet store. Most of my animals are permanent additions to my home whether they were purchased or adopted - especially a couple I've gotten that were in really bad shape, just doesn't seem fair to let them go somewhere where their care may be uncertain after they've had such a rough start. There's a few in my collection that I might sell down the road, but that's more of a maybe than a definite. Needless to say, snakes are my passion...what can I say, I'm addicted.
>>
>>Raven
>>
>>3.5 Bci (Common/Colombian redtails)
>>2.2 Solomon Island ground boas (Candoia paulsoni paulsoni)
>>0.1 Santa Isabel ground boa (Candoia paulsoni paulsoni)
>>1.0 Colombian rainbow boa
>>1.1 Dumerils boas
>>1.0 Ball python
>>1.1 Coastal carpet pythons
>>1.0 Jungle X Coastal carpet python
>>1.0 Jungle carpet python
>>0.1 Diamond X Jungle carpet python
>>0.1 Albino burmese python (yearling & 5' - small for her age)
>>0.1 Normal phase burmese python (5-6 years old, 13')
>>1.1 Normal phase corn snakes
>>1.1 Snow corns

lucille Mar 10, 2004 01:33 PM

Do they have sex with just anyboa when you put them together? How long do they have to be together? How do you know if they did it? How long before you know your female is pg?

Raven01 Mar 10, 2004 04:03 PM

>>Do they have sex with just anyboa when you put them together? How long do they have to be together? How do you know if they did it? How long before you know your female is pg?

I've only had one successful litter so far (back in 2000). I bred a pair last season with no luck (I believe I separated them too soon, but I'm not sure). Last October I put two pairs together, my oldest female with my best friend's male (both proven breeders), and one of my males with one of my other females (only the male was proven of this match). I generally leave them together until January or February. When I put them together in the fall, the male will begin courting the female - rubbing his head and body all over hers and scratching her with his spurs to try to get her 'in the mood'. I'll see breeding behaviour off and on (mostly on) for the next few months - the male draped over the female with their vents aligned for copulation or draped over her and spurring her. Sometimes you can actually witness the copulation and see the male's hemipenis connected with the female (I've never actually witnessed it with mine though). With one of my males, he will wave (curling and uncurling) his tale during copulation (I call it his victory dance lol). Not all males do this, but I understand it's pretty common. I also watch for the female's ovulation (a sizable mid-body swelling that disappears in a day or so). It's pretty easy to miss ovulation in my opinion, so daily viewing is pretty much a must - at least for me. Shortly after ovulation, most females will go into shed (called the post ovulation shed or POS). I continue to leave my pairs together at this point, allowing the male to continue breeding activity. Eventually the female will no longer accept his advances and you'll see them in separate parts of the cage (at least that's what mine do). If I don't see resumed activity within a day or two, I put him back in his own cage. If the female is gravid (pregnant), she'll start to bask a lot in a haphazzard coiled position (refered to as the heat conservation position). I make sure to note the date of the post ovulation shed mentioned above because it helps predict roughly when the babies will be born (usually around 105 days after the shed - give or take a few days). I'm sure those with more breeding experience than myself have this down pat, but for me it's still something of a guessing game to determine who's gravid and who isn't. I bred two pairs this year - my proven female I know is gravid because of her basking, darkened coloring, temperament change and lower body swelling (just like in 2000), but I'm at a loss to guess if the other girl is gravid or not (breeding activity stopped but no other behaviour has changed nor does she 'look' gravid). For the second girl, it's a wait and see situation. For my proven girl, I'm expecting babies mid-April or so. All in all I find it pretty exciting. There's nothing like looking in the cage and seeing a bunch of slimy babies milling around.

Raven

lucille Mar 10, 2004 05:46 PM

Is it OK to leave the mom with the babies after they hatch or does the mom try to eat them? Will they hurt each other? Do you do anything special except provide appropriate size food? How do they know how to eat, is it instinctive?

Raven01 Mar 11, 2004 08:18 AM

Most people separate them pretty soon after birth, while the mother is still tired, because she will defend her babies from 'predators' (i.e. US) trying to mess with them. It's variable between keepers whether they remove all the babies or simply move the mother to a different cage. What I did with my litter in 2000 was to put the babies in a cage I already had set up just for them and put the mother in a rubbermaid style tub while I cleaned her cage, then put her back in her own cage. From what I've read, the only real potential for harm coming to the babies is if the mother lays on them and crushes them. I would assume this to be more true of larger females as my oldest girl is actually quite slender and small compared to many other Colombian redtails I've seen. As for feeding the babies, pretty much you just give them appropriately sized prey (typically fuzzy mice). I wait for their first shed (usually they shed within a week or two) and then offer food. None of the 18 babies from my first litter refused to eat. They're pretty much hardwired to know how to act. From my understanding babies usually have some unabsorbed yolk in their systems and are fine until after that first shed. At the same time, I don't think there is any harm in offering them prey before the shed, especially if they appear thin. My female is unusual in that she will continue to feed even while gravid, though I give her smaller than normal meals so as not to put any stress on the developing offspring. Her babies were born plump and healthy so I had no qualms about waiting for their first shed before feeding them. My best friend's female would not eat while gravid and her babies were a bit thinner, so she offered them food after just a few days and prior to their shed...all of hers also ate. All in all, they're very instinct-driven animals and acclimating to being handled pets is the learned behaviour. They're born knowing how to survive.

Raven

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