Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hope this doesn't violate the TOS. I'm only bringing an ongoing conversaton back to the top.

This is in response to your quote below.

"Yes, you are right on the mark. Those individual techniques are what should be shared on this forum, without threads turning into a sludge fest. I should not matter if it is a newbie reading it or a seasoned breeder. The information that is presented here is for all to read."

My response:

I think it's important that if you are going to give out advice to a newbie that it be advice that has been proven successful by a large number of keepers, not simply by your experience or the experience of just a few others.

You have to take into consideration a few things. One being the ability for a newbie to recognize signs of problems with their animals. Another being the intial experience the newbie has with their animal. What if this newbie decides to take your advice and you happen to forget to mention a small but important detail about your husbandry? Now this newbie has a sick dragon and 95% of what he reads says he should be doing something completely different than what you have advised. So this newbie starts to panic and what was supposed to be a good experience has turned into an awful situation.

I'm not against experienced people trying different practices of husbandry but those people know what to look for and have an understanding about the behavior of their animals. Those people understand the difference between ambient and surface temps, the reasons why a dragon may show different colors, what the feces should look like, how a beardie should appear alert while basking, what sunkin eyes look like among other subtleties that a newbie may not pick up on right away. I just think it is a foolish thing to do to suggest to a newbie something that has not been advised and proven by the majority of successful keepers. Advice that can be backed up by multiple sources to give the newbie some confidence he/she is doing things the right way for his animal.

I remember not too long ago how easy it was to go into a panic and lose sleep because I was unsure I was doing something right. When I researched something it was comforting to see what I was doing had worked for so many. How difficult do you think it is to make a mistake simply because of the lack of confidence of what you are doing? Not very.

If you are going to give advice to newbies suggesting things that are not the norm please try to take these things into consideration. Try to think about how you felt when you got your first reptile and were paranoid about it's care, knowing your decisions dictated the health and happiness of the animal you loved and were completely responsible for. It's tough enough to weed through all the different advice so why add to it? It's just not fair to put newbies or their animals into that kind of situation.

Why not leave that kind of advice for people who are able to recognize and handle the different problems that may occur and have some experience under their belt?

Please also take into consideration this is coming from someone who has just recently gone through, and still is, that period of being a newbie. I can imagine it's easy to forget what that's all about once you've been into it for years.
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Rob Talkington
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Rob Talkington

I feel having different methods to care for bearded dragons or any lizard (or pet for that matter) is good to newbies and experienced people. Sure it can be confusing for a newbie getting a bunch of people saying do this and having a few other people saying, no do this instead or you don't have to do that, can be confusing. But, to me, this makes me think why the minority want to do it differently? This prompts me to ask questions on why it works doing it both ways then forming my own opinions or even taking both views into account to manage my husbandry.

Read two books on bearded dragons and immediately you will find some differences. Some may say one type of food is good, another that it should only be used moderately or not at all. Some may just list foods that are not likely to kill your dragon out right. What it all comes down to is most books are writing by herptologists, breeders or veternarians who have a passion for the animal they are writing a book about. Some are better at research than others. Some may have been raising dragons for 10 years and never have one die and assume their husbandry is the ideal when it just may be one of many.

The whole UVB debate, if dragons even need it they are properly supplimented with Calcium containting vitamine D3. Simplified it makes sense, dragons need D3 to metabolize calcium and in the wild they get it from UVB rays. Without those rays, then they can't use the calcium they eat thus, will wind up suffering from MBD. However, if you give them D3 in their diet, they can metabolize the calcium they eat and thus, remain healthy. Why add more UVB when you give them what they need UVB for in a suppliment? When broken down this way it does make a kind of sense but of course there other factors that are overlooked or just not identified yet.

UVB does intensify the natural colour of the dragon or is the lightening of colouration just a natural response to a dragon sensing it's getting alot more UVB than it needs so it absorbes less by lighting up it's colour? Several studies have been quoted and linked to in the debate, all of which are interesting and make me very tempted to do some experimenting on my own. Like taking a clutch of bearded dragons from teh same parents, rear half of them with UVB and no supplimentation and the other half with no UVB light at all, just supplimentation of calcium with D3 and a regular bulb for light intensity. Then, every week or every other week, take them all to a qualified reptile vet to test for calcium levels, bone density and over all health as well as regular weighing and measuring for growth.

What it all comes down to, is newbies should be encouraged to do research, read the books, websites, caresheets, forums, etc. Ask questions and draw their own conclusions. The easiest way is go by what the majority says as the tried and true method. Personally there are little points here and there in what the majority suggest that I feel is just unncessary but most times I don't debate it. There will always be minor differences in everybodies practices when it comes to bearded dragons. There is still alot we don't know about our spiny friends and all we can do is keep an open mind and not just dismiss different methods as bad because they go against the norm.

Kind of how I would have put it if I cared to elaborate on my answer...lol.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Rob,
I read your reply, and I really did not care to reply. It's just something we don't agree upon. I see your point, but it won't change the advice I give. I don't feel that I should "dummy up" the replies I make on this forum or to those who might email me seeking advice. You know what I mean?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

>>Rob,
>>I read your reply, and I really did not care to reply. It's just something we don't agree upon. I see your point, but it won't change the advice I give. I don't feel that I should "dummy up" the replies I make on this forum or to those who might email me seeking advice. You know what I mean?
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>>Bill DiFabio
>>Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
>>Email Me
>>"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Bill,

If you read it why didn't you reply? I was only stating my thoughts and trying to point out to you the other side of the situation from someone who is just starting out caring for these animals. Believe me I'm not trying to start a battle here Bill. I just wanted to point out my opinion in the hopes you might understand newbies are different than experienced keepers and thought maybe you might have a change of heart, that's all. Or at lease take it into consideration. Did my post sound rude or something of that nature that you felt the need not to reply?

Oh, by the way, thanks for the advice the other day on the trex supps and my firebellie toads. It was much appreciated.
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Rob Talkington

Rob,
I didn't reply initially maybe because I felt it would incite a reply from you and then I would have to reply...blah,blah, blah, and so on. The forum has seen far to much of that lately...lol.

"I just wanted to point out my opinion in the hopes you might understand newbies are different than experienced keepers and thought maybe you might have a change of heart, that's all."

I know that newbies are different, but that does not mean they need to be sheltered from husbandry that is different that what is usually posted on this forum. I honestly don't think my general husbandry for raising and keeping dragons is all that hard to follow. Especially now that I use the t-rex supps., it couldn't be any easier. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about breeding. I would hope that someone looking to breed there dragons is not a newbie anyway. So, no...I did not have a change of heart I will still reply to general husbandry posts with how I do things and not what is considered the "norm"what ever that might be). I didn't take you post as rude at all Rob, and I hope my doesn't come off as such. Your welcome for the advice and good luck with the toads.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

if anyone is interested...

...about general care and husbandy, anyone who is new to any particular type of reptile should read about them. go get a book--or two--and learn about them. go online and do a search for care sheets--read several different ones--learn different techniques--find different pictures and look at them. and certainly, come on kingsnake and ask questions. i think that this message board is a great place to learn different ideas about things and a great place to ask advice as well. i really enjoy and appreciate all the different answers i can get when i post a question.

the thing is--anybody, newbies and veterans alike, should be able to take many points into consideration and use common sense to choose the one that they think works the best. to me, 'cause this is what i do, it's referencing peoples ideas and opinions with things i've maybe read or heard before, and before i go switching something drastically from the norm (what i read in books or on care sheets) i will ask you guys if anyone else has tried it, what the outcome was, and how to achieve optimum results.

so i agree with aztec lizard when he says, "...should not matter if it is a newbie reading it or a seasoned breeder. The information that is presented here is for all to read,"

but i also agree with rob that, "advice that can be backed up by multiple sources to give the newbie some confidence he/she is doing things the right way for his animal."

i just believe that it is the newbie that should be responsible for learning to make the decision on his own.

amanda

I guess I just see so many posts about people doing things that are soooooo incredibly wrong I tend to think people are probably not as careful as they should be.

I'm talking about stupid stuff like "my dragon gets a diet of lettuce and spinach" or "my baby dragon eats 3 large crix a day and now he won't go to the bathroom and seems skinny".

It's that kind of crap that makes me think newbies need to be led by hand and the minute they read something from someone they'll take it as gospel.

If the information would not be so different all over the place it would be a lot easier for these idiots not to make the idiot mistakes they make. Now that I think about it a little more I guess maybe that's not what is best for the species overall, though, and as long as these opinions from all sides are expressed on the forums when someone asks questions it will give people the opportunity to make a choice. Interesting concept I'll have to think about for awhile.
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Rob Talkington

Sad thing is even if all the info on the web said exactly the same thing, there will always be the idiots out there that do it wrong.