Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Before I say anything, thanks for helping me everyone. My lizard is doing great but I have some quick questions. I should connect this post with the other one but its all the way near the middle of the page and I wasn't sure anyone would get it.

Anyways, bloodbat, you said low temperatures like in the 60's is okay as long as long as he has a place to warm up right? Just to make sure because I read somewhere that they say if the lizard is exposed to the cold they might catch some sort of cold which can be fatal in some cases. Thats why i'm so worried.

My room, because of global warming, is currently at around the 70's mark and its okay for now but I was wondering. My son's lizard keeps wondering off to the cold dark place to sleep. The place I made him is dark and about 80F and the places he usually hide in can become 65F at some nights. Somehow he doesn't like the place I built, its warm and dark I wonder why, too hot? Should I just let him do whatever he wants, hide wherever he wants and warm himself up when he wants to? Or should I block the cold hiding places. I keep having to wake up every night and try to find where he is so if he's in a cold spot I can put him back in the warm spot. Should I do this or let him do whatever he wants, not sure what to do. Please help.

Again thanks for the help before and thanks in advance.

John---

is the cold spot the monitor prefers in some way more secure (to the monitor) than the warm hide spot? i.e. a tighter squeeze, darker etc. It probably isn't the cold it is seeking, but some other aspect of that hiding spot is more important to the monitor than keeping warm. For a small monitor, security is everything. Perhaps try to give it a few choices of hide spots in different parts of the room, at different temperatures. Hollow branches, a box with a small entrance hole etc.

"is the cold spot the monitor prefers in some way more secure (to the monitor) than the warm hide spot? i.e. a tighter squeeze, darker etc. It probably isn't the cold it is seeking, but some other aspect of that hiding spot is more important to the monitor than keeping warm. For a small monitor, security is everything. Perhaps try to give it a few choices of hide spots in different parts of the room, at different temperatures. Hollow branches, a box with a small entrance hole etc."

Yes sometimes the spot is tighter, a lot tighter. Just say it took me an hour to get him out with a probing stick kind of tighter! The kind of tightness that makes you wonder "why the heck?" or "how does he do that?". Those spot I've blocked long long ago. The spot he has now isn't as tight but is definitely dark. However, the spot I gave him is also dark.

I don't know what to do. See, what I want to know is, I've given him a warm spot. I can give him multiple hiding spots but they would be rather cold at night. I just wanna know if its okay. Obviously the lizard seems to be happy, but I just want to know if it would be safe. He is currently sleeping near the window sill okay I can't spell. Just wanna know should I just let him do whatever he wants and how safe it is.

John---

How small is the monitor? I've never kept water monitors - the species I keep comes from more temperate areas and is very cold tolerant - but my guess would be that cooler temperatures (60F) would be safer for a healthy adult than a hatchling water monitor. An animal somewhere in between should cope with it if healthy, but I'd still be wondering why it would be choosing to hide in a cold spot. Monitors usually choose what's best for them, but not always. It may choose security over warmth if it sees it as an either/or situation. It may also come from an area where it is unlikely to encounter temperatures as low as it is sitting in right now, therefore not be instinctively aware of the potential damage. If you are certain that all of the hide spots are near identical, except for the temperature, then let it make the choices.

This caught my eye:
"Yes sometimes the spot is tighter, a lot tighter. Just say it took me an hour to get him out with a probing stick kind of tighter! The kind of tightness that makes you wonder "why the heck?" or "how does he do that?". Those spot I've blocked long long ago."

If it were me, what I'd do is reproduce a few of those sorts of tight spots and put them around the place, one or two at the warm end, one or two at the cool end, one or two in the middle. There's a reason the little guy chose the tight spot you have just described above. They need to feel secure from the big predator (you). That's the 'why the heck' part. When you pull them out of spots like that, they feel even less secure and have to find a better spot next time. If young monitors know they have a secure place to run to when necessary, the chances of them becoming tolerant of your presence increase.

The monitor is 15 inches. I believe he's very healthy. Bright eyes, always....always on the move, he eats mice great but doesn't seem to fancy bugs that great. The spot where I said is tight, the problem with it is he has a problem moving in it. Like he jams himself in it. Its not the snugly kind of tight, its the kind of tightness you try to get into when you play hide and seek in a house. An unconfortable, hard to breath kind of tightness. And if I ever want to get him out, like if my son wants to play with it, it would be extremely difficult. Another reason why I block the spots is because checking up on the lizard's status is very hard. I mean I block all the hiding spaces and it takes me 10 minutes to check up on him still. Before it would take an hour. I check up on him to see if he's okay, still in the room, in any bad situation where he can't get out, etc.

Okay DK, this is what I'm going to do. I'll let him hide wherever he wants, except in those really tight spots I told you. I'll keep the warm spot open and probably open up some other hiding spots around the room. My question is, how do you tell if the monitor is being negatively affected by the cold if the cold is ever too much?

Oh yeah, how about warmth and digestion?

John---

I think you need to give this a little thought.

First, an enclosure(cage) is not only something that encloses a monitor, it actually something that encloses the monitors needs. In my opinion, there is nothing in a room thats beneficial to a monitor.

Its obvious that you "know" nothing about monitors(reptiles) and there is nothing wrong with that.

For heavens sake, make a nice raise-up cage for that baby monitor and with that learn how to keep that monitor. Then when it grows up, you will have a much better idea what you need to enclose in your room.

Some of the things you will learn are, one, monitors are not windup dolls and have hundreds of other things they respond to, not simply temps. You already know, what you call a hide, the monitor does not. You need to ask yourself why. Not why the monitor does use it, but instead why you call it one. In truth, its only a hide if the monitor calls it one.

Monitors(all reptiles) use many different temps, many different secure places that include many different temps. The same goes for humidity. The use many different conditions. They do so because they are reptiles. Reptiles do not contain a set body temp and are pea poor at containing moisture(they use to be salamanders). So they use the enviornment to obtain those basic needs.

Also, you asked about burrowing, burrowing, cracks, crevices, etc. Are a monitors house. They spend the majority of their lives in them. Their homes are their security, they maintain their humidity, they control their metabolism.

Their metabolism includes both higher temps, like your hot spots, and more importantly, cool spots, so they can conserve energy.

You know its not very smart of you to put a monitor in a room if you do not know what will harm it. Yes, I know this is your original question, but its not the right question. Its not so much the cold, but the dryness, actually the combination of both, add in, exposure and insecurity and you should understand why a room is not a good place to start.

The two important parts of a water monitors life are, burrows, this is where they live, not hide. Water, hence the name water monitor, this is where they hunt. Open areas, which is your concern is where the predators live, and scares the crap out of them. Specially babies.

So, how would you like to live on the street? and have to run all amped out, like on speed, at all times. My advice is, to make a nice cage and learn the needs of your monitor. FR

"I think you need to give this a little thought."

Well my question to you is, how do you know I didn't? Because I wasn't sure about the temperatures? Because I asked questions?

"First, an enclosure(cage) is not only something that encloses a monitor, it actually something that encloses the monitors needs. In my opinion, there is nothing in a room thats beneficial to a monitor."

I think you should think twice before typing down these things, you're just blabbering away like a Mr.Know It All. He's in the room because its roomy and he can roam and climb wherever he wants and instead of me having to build or buy a cage this is simplier. "Nothing" is a hard word to look at. The room is called a MONITOR ENCLOSURE not simply an enclosure, so yes it does contain stuff in it for the MONITOR, did I say otherwise? So what you said there was useless and waste of time to read.

"Its obvious that you know nothing about monitors(reptiles) and there is nothing wrong with that."

Who are you to tell me if I know everything or nothing? Do you know everything therefore say I know nothing? Again, think twice. Nothing is a word you should use after thought. Asking questions doesn't mean you know nothing, it means you're at least making the effort to learn. I didn't come here and say, hey I bought a monitor, what does it eat, what does it drink, how big does it grow, or what is a monitor? The stuff I ask isn't easily found in every book about monitors.

"For heavens sake, make a nice raise-up cage for that baby monitor and with that learn how to keep that monitor. Then when it grows up, you will have a much better idea what you need to enclose in your room."

You must not have read the stuff where I said I've kept reptiles before so again a waste of your time. I know the basics in keeping the monitor but I don't know EVERYTHING, that is why i'm here asking questions.

"Some of the things you will learn are, one, monitors are not windup dolls and have hundreds of other things they respond to, not simply temps. You already know, what you call a hide, the monitor does not. You need to ask yourself why. Not why the monitor does use it, but instead why you call it one. In truth, its only a hide if the monitor calls it one."

Again, rethink. You don't know who I am or what I know so don't give assumptions you have nothing to base on. What is a hide, I understand what you're talking about but geez. I never said the lizard or any animal out there is like a windup doll, again this is you putting stuff in my mouth. Okay, yawn, you seem to know alot about hiding places. I bet you're like "oh I made a good hide for my lizard in the large enclosure I built", but thing is, again, its usually your opinion, it usually always is. The lizard can't talk. For example there are three hiding spots in your huge enclosure. Just because he picks one doesn't mean he's happy with the hiding spot you gave it, it just means he prefers it over the others. I mean, he's trap in the enclosure, it doesn't talk in human language, what choices do he have? How are YOU sure your monitor calls it a hiding spot? Mr. Dolittle I presume?

"Monitors(all reptiles) use many different temps, many different secure places that include many different temps. The same goes for humidity. The use many different conditions. They do so because they are reptiles. Reptiles do not contain a set body temp and are pea poor at containing moisture(they use to be salamanders). So they use the enviornment to obtain those basic needs."

Again, here you are assuming I don't know this stuff. Are you actually reading my questions? I know he has to have different places to hide, my question was, the places he has to hide is cold, is it okay? If the lizard is so good at controlling his own temperature and humidity, why does he lie in a hole that was 60F and why does he have shedding problems? The room is big and you're talking about trying to heat and humidify the whole thing. If I was to build a big cage for it, it would be outside and for all I know, its much harsher outside than inside. Its either a whole room or a little cage.

"You know its not very smart of you to put a monitor in a room if you do not know what will harm it. Yes, I know this is your original question, but its not the right question. Its not so much the cold, but the dryness, actually the combination of both, add in, exposure and insecurity and you should understand why a room is not a good place to start."

There is a difference between inexperience and idiocy. I mean, its my first time I ever setup a room enclosure for a monitor lizard. I mean, what do you expect, I'm suppose to get everything right the first time? With the help I get? I think what you said is not very smart in your terms. How is it not the "right" question, its the only question I need to answer. I got the other information. Do you want me to ask it over again? Would that satisfy you?

"So, how would you like to live on the street? and have to run all amped out, like on speed, at all times. My advice is, to make a nice cage and learn the needs of your monitor. FR"

I'm not even going to try because this is a waste of time. People here seem prone to arguing and giving assumptions to stuff you don't even know. Just post the answer to the questions, not little remarks, cause all it does is waste time for anyone that reads it. What did I learn here after all these posts. He needs more hiding places, buy a room heater, it can stand lower temperatures, and buy a temperature gun...Could have gotten all this in one post, but I didn't.

Still, thanks for those who help by actually giving me information instead of giving me comments on how I know nothing about monitors and he knows everything and so on. I'm signing off of this place so again thanks for the help. Hope we meet again.

John---

I am so darn dumb. forgive me for that. I should have said, please do not respond, instead of, think about this. I actually meant for you to think about it and not respond. Don't you have enough brains to understand, I could give a flying F$%#%#% about what you decide to do. Hmmmmmmmm only trying to help dog.

I guess, remember I am so dumb, that you must not have thought to hard about it, as you are taking a very risky(for the monitor) approach.

So, for my effort, I have found another stup#$%# Ars$%#%#$%#. Who cares more about themselves, then the monitor. Really how hard is thinking, no one asked you to do anything.

If you actually thought about what I said, I recomended keeping the monitor in a cage while young, you know, until you learn what it needs. Now the reason I said that is, if you do not learn what it needs, you will not need a room. Good day and please do not respond. I will add you to my personal, do not contact list. FR

Johnsonnnz,

If you read FR's post, he's actually trying to help you with your monitor. Rather than react to the perceived insults (so what if you don't know much about monitors? How can you expect to if you've never kept them before?) read and think about the monitor husbandry aspects. He's made several good points about burrows, humidity, temperature and hide spots. Take a deep breath, think about them. Building a small enclosure is a good idea to provide a more controlled environment for your monitor until it gains some size.

In the meantime, with your current setup, I will add one thing, which is something I mentioned in my previous post. You'll have to learn to stop telling the monitor which hide spots it can and cannot use. If the monitor finds a tight hide spot that prevents your son from taking it out to 'play' with it, it's chosen that tight hide spot BECAUSE it prevents your son from taking it out to 'play' with it. I am not trying to be nasty, but if you want a nasty monitor that's one way of getting there (handling it when it doesn't want to be handled). Monitors are smart animals. As babies, they require security. Once a hide spot has been violated, they feel less secure and will be more frightened of you. They'll also learn to resent the owner of those hands that keep pulling it out of hide spots. If the monitor likes tight hide spots, give it tight hide spots, even if it means you can't handle it once it is in those tight hide spots. If it is choosing a tight hide spot in a cool area because the other hide spots aren't as secure, it means it would rather be secure than warm. It's trying to tell you something. Security is all. Make sure there are a number of those tight hide spots available, in both the warm and cool areas and inbetween. Eventually it will probably feel more secure and will come to trust you, on its own time, in its own terms, and will stop running to hide when it sees you. For now, worry about its health rather than forcing it to become tame, and its health may require tight hide spots for security.

The whole point to my post is this: Rather than worry about how the cold is going to affect the monitor (it will) and how it will be able to digest when it keeps choosing to hide in the cold areas (it can't), worry about why it is choosing to hide there in the first place. ie prevention rather than cure. If it wants really, really tight, can-barely-breath hide spots let it have them, especially if they are in a warm part of the room. The more hide spots you pull the monitor out of, the tighter will be the next hide spot it chooses.

But we all know that monitor will likely be dead in six months.

I hope your posts helped someone else reading who actually wants to learn.
D.

Ok maybe you would rather here it from me then? Since i work with the species.

A room is not a cage it is a room. Rooms in houses are for people, enclosures in that room are designed for reptiles. So I must say I agree with what FR has already told you.

Build an enclosure for the little water monitor. Once he is older you may be able to house him in the room correctly but I still do not suggest rooms.

Please re-read the advice given to you.

Just a tiny one. While indeed this fella may not want to hear this from me. Its not about species, the information givin is conserve(across species).

The try this approach, is pandering to ignorance. Somehow, people want this information to be species specific, when 95% or more of captive husbandry is conserve.

So I ask, would you recomend keeping a baby of any monitor species in a room? OK, a baby reptile of any kind, in a room?

Playing the devil,(playing???) why not? FR

I guess by my title for the subject line you thought I was saying this only about salvators?

What I said would pertain to all reptiles, not any species but all species.

I wouldn't even keep my adults in a room of my house, it would just take to much work to have that room become anything good for them. Rooms are not designed to offer them what they need.

I'd rather start from scratch and build a nice enclosure.

i agree, it is difficult to make a room into something really good.

i kept my argus in a room and they did ok, but did not have the abilities with how i set them up to behave like they should. i then put them in an 8x4 with 2.5 feet of dirt, they seemed to use the smaller space better then the big space with improper everything.

andrew

This time I'd actually agree with Frank's comments, if not with his quaint ways of expressing them. An enclosure does two things: it keeps the animal safe from a whole range of dangers and inappropriate conditions in its surroundings; and it gives you the opportunity to provide suitable conditions that can be very hard to duplicate in a room-sized enclosure, particularly for a small animal. Most small monitors, whether they are juveniles of large species or small species per se, seem to be programmed to avoid being in the open, particularly a long ways from a known secure hiding spot. This need to hide can override other important factors such as heat and humidity until it is quite literally too late.

The reason that most of the responses here aren't helping you to outfit a room for a small water monitor is that experienced people genuinely feel that the animal will do a lot better in a cage, at least until it has grown large enough to override the "first, hide" impulse.

John

I respect that you are giving your monitor an entire room in which to live. I think that is wonderful. However, I think there are some things here with your setup and your approach that may not bode well for its long-term well-being. I am not criticizing your intentions or your knowledge, but there are things you are doing that concern me in terms of the monitor's health.

I may have missed this the first time, but are you keeping a hatchling or juvenile loose in the room? I use room-sized enclosures for larger monitors. Labyrinth was 5 feet, Mushu is 3.5 or so. My niles were 3-4 feet. I have let 2.5 foot monitors live in rooms but they were more of a challenge. Essentially, the smaller the monitor the more difficult it is to keep them in good conditions in a room. I use aquariums for my hatchlings and smaller monitors, and that includes young water monitors. I would strongly suggest you keep your monitor in an aquarium or other enclosure until it is bigger.

You blocked off all the small crevices and seem to be trying to get your monitor to use hide spaces he does not like. Monitors like to feel wedged under things. This was not how my first hide spots were for my monitors, but they did use them. I found that as I made them smaller, the monitors preferred the smaller ones over the roomier ones. I gave you a suggestion in a different post to use plywood and 2x2 or 2x4s for hide areas. A hatchling will want something even smaller than that! I used 1x3 or 1x4 for my adult monitors. I raised my dirt box onto cinder blocks to help me, and to make it a bit easier for Labyrinth to get under the box. In the wild he would just dig under it to his liking, but on a wooden floor I had to help him out.

As for choosing the cooler hide spots, I am not sure why that is happening. It could be lots of reasons. Maybe he wants to be cooler. Maybe he does not feel safe in the warmer ones. That desk hide spot you described in an earlier post does not sound like a hide spot that a baby would find secure and it would not be happy in it. None of my babies would choose something like that unless they had nothing else from which to choose.

Again, I strongly suggest putting your monitor in a smaller enclosure. This way you can see what he prefers in the cage and you can adapt your room as time goes on so the room is based on his cage. I kept monitors for several years before venturing to a room sized, free-roaming enclosure. Even then, there were lots of adjustments I had to make. I still make adjustments. Cages are easier to work with at first and let you get a feel for that particular animal.

That said, your original question was will 65 degree temps hurt him. I think (I don't know for sure) that in the case of your monitor, those temps might hurt him in the long run. I suspect your monitor will be stressed in his current living environment and lower temps will hurt a stressed monitor. Step back a few paces and get an aquarium. A 55 gallon or a 40 breeder or build a wooden box. Use that for a while and wait until he is bigger to let him free roam. By that time, you will know his personality and you won't have to worry about small crevices or anything like that (for example, I do not have the space under my door blocked. I do not put anything in that room that can squeeze under the door). Small monitors can and will find something you forgot to block or address and they will get hurt or killed or go missing (personal experience).

I know that is not what you want to hear, but that's the best I can offer you at this time. Best of luck.
-----
^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

Hey John. I posted a response to your first question down below. Not sure if you saw it, so here is the link. Please re-read it and take it to heart for the sake of your monitor,
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=377602,378899

Again, best of luck. Billy

>>Before I say anything, thanks for helping me everyone. My lizard is doing great but I have some quick questions. I should connect this post with the other one but its all the way near the middle of the page and I wasn't sure anyone would get it.
>>
>>Anyways, bloodbat, you said low temperatures like in the 60's is okay as long as long as he has a place to warm up right? Just to make sure because I read somewhere that they say if the lizard is exposed to the cold they might catch some sort of cold which can be fatal in some cases. Thats why i'm so worried.
>>
>>My room, because of global warming, is currently at around the 70's mark and its okay for now but I was wondering. My son's lizard keeps wondering off to the cold dark place to sleep. The place I made him is dark and about 80F and the places he usually hide in can become 65F at some nights. Somehow he doesn't like the place I built, its warm and dark I wonder why, too hot? Should I just let him do whatever he wants, hide wherever he wants and warm himself up when he wants to? Or should I block the cold hiding places. I keep having to wake up every night and try to find where he is so if he's in a cold spot I can put him back in the warm spot. Should I do this or let him do whatever he wants, not sure what to do. Please help.
>>
>>Again thanks for the help before and thanks in advance.
>>
>>John---