Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am not a breeder of these snakes yet however, I've noticed from the postings to this forum that there seems to be some routine problems that crop up from time to time. I would like to hear some opinions as to why. I have a feeling that lack of exercise and overfeeding may lead to many of these problems. I don't know how typical it is for wild snakes to experience these problems, but keeping animals in small enclosures can't be the best situation. I understand that as breeders allowances must be made to maximize what limited space is available. I mean no disrespect nor am I casting dispersions on anyone. It's just that keeping an animal in a confined space without exercise does not lead to good muscle tone.

Lack of musculature and exercise coupled with excess weight leads to complications with most other species (i.e. people, dogs,cats,parakeets, etc.).

Can't wait to read the responses,
Bob

But there are other things that are known to contribute, such as low sperm count in males due to insufficient brumation duration or incorrect brumation temperatures. Egg binding is much more likely to occur with infertile eggs. It is possible for a female to be carrying a clutch of 10 or more eggs with only 2 or three being fertile. In that case, depending on the position of the fertile and infertile eggs, it's possible for her to bind with fertile eggs inside here, but the actual eggs that are adhered will be the infertile one, causing her not to be able to pass the fertile ones behind them. It's a little like stuffing marbles through a garden hose. They are going to come out in the order they are in inside the female. If you stuff three marbles in and the fourth one gets stuck, all the marbles behind the stuck one are stuck, too.

Another thing that can contribute to the actual egg-binding process is bacterial infection. This infection is very difficult to diagnose befor there is actual egg binding because generally the female will exibit no outward symptoms.

There is some evidence that exercise and body weight/mass do play an important role in successful captive breeding, and that only makes sense, especially from the female's point of view. There is a lot of stress involved in the actual mating process, and the a lot of body resources are used in the production and calcification of the eggs, then more stress at egg laying time.

Bill Love (of CornUtopia, now run mainly by his wife Kathy) commented on this somewhere I read. In the early days, they kept and bred corns in boxes smaller than the 28 qt blanket boxes used widely today. As soon as they went to larger enclosures, the incidences of egg binding decreased by quite a bit.

You can see from the above that giving the snakes more room helps. Also, keeping females less fat helps, as does regular exercise. As oldherper pointed out, there may be other factors, but you can minimize the likelyhood of egg binding by keeping active snakes like many kings, milks, corns/rats and gophers/bulls in cages that offer enough room. Yes, they may spend 90% of the time crammed in a hide spot, but they should be able to stretch out somewhat when they want.
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Mark

I have always been rather skeptical of the implication that cage size affects egg binding. If that were the case, you would see it across the board in snakes kept in undersized cages. Instead, it seems to be common in a few species and rarely happens in others.

- For example, why do eastern kings seem to suffer from this problem whereas you don't see it reported often in Florida Kings? Clearly there are more obese FL kings in undersized cages than easterns, yet it doesn't seem to be a problem. Indigos seem to have trouble with this more often that other species as well.

For anyone who has "been breeding snakes for years, and have never had a problem with this...", try breeding a few pairs of Eastern Kings or Indigos for several years. Then come back and I will listen.

As for cage size, I have a female eastern king that spent last year living in a 48" vision cage by herself (she is around 4.5 feet). That is a lot of room for a snake her size (at least by captive standards. She became egg bound last year and I aspirated the first couple of eggs so she could lay the rest. None hatched (but I didn't get my male very cool so that may have contributed).

This year, she has been moved (due to room issues) to a smaller 24x24 inch vision cage (less than half the size). The result, egg binding again. I aspirated one egg (21 days after the pre-lay shed) and she layed 10 eggs, off which 8 still look good. So cage size alone doesn't seem to have made a difference.

I had also heard that some people swear by calcium supplementation to reduce egg binding. This year I supplemented her rats with a little calcium. Result - egg bound again.

Some people comment about it being muscle tone. My easterns are very active and constrict their F/T rats (and I sometimes jiggle them a little after they grab them to make them constrict harder). Admittedly, I don't handle them often, but they are always out and about begging for food.

I have also seen egg binding once in a Western Hog that layed a perfectly good clutch the previous year and who wasn't appreciably heavier the next.

I am just concerned we are jumping to conclusions about the underlying cause of egg binding in captive snakes. I think this issue (and the prevalence of full term stillbirths in live-bearing snakes) may be more complicated than we are assuming.
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Chris Harrison

Is that of all the wild caught snakes I've seen that were gravid when captured, I've never seen or heard of one egg binding or laying slugs. I'm sure it probably happens occasionally in the wild, but it would appear that it is more of a captive phenomenon. That would indicate to me that it is husbandry or stress related somehow, either directly or indirectly.

Have any of these wc developed problems in later years?
Are certain lines more prone to problems?
I'm not jumping to conclusions and I'm sure that a host of causes can lead to these problems.

There is an eastern milk with an old tail injury that hangs around my wood shed. I have seen this same snake ranging far afield. I own 13 acres and have seen this snake across the opposite end of my property, over a 624' hill and on the next slope over almost 1/2 mile in a straight line. That's a lot of movement compared to a 28qt box.
Bob

>>Have any of these wc developed problems in later years?

Female Western Hog -
wild caught large adult female - 1991
produced 5 healthy eggs - 1993 (after putting on some weight)
died egg bound - 1994 (not significantly heavier than previous year)
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Chris Harrison

Your last sentence "I think this issue (and the prevalence of full term stillbirths in live-bearing snakes) may be more complicated than we are assuming." is probably right on. I offered the post to glean ideas from the resident experts.
Thanks, Bob

In my old bullsnake breeding records, I've noticed a gradual increase in the number of infertile eggs over several years. This was in a couple of wild caught adult females that were on a diet of domestic mice.

Everything that I've seen says that breeder females (whether humans, chickens, or trout) have greater nutritional needs than nonbreeders. And that one sign of borderline nutritional deficiency is an increase in infertility and congenital defects. And that diets in the wild are considerably more varied than in captivity.

So perhaps some of the problems we are seeing are nutritionally related.

In the spring, wild bullsnakes and rat snakes take a number of eggs and baby birds. Don't know about eastern kings. Might supplimenting their rodent diet with baby chicks help? Your guess is as good as mine.

Paul Hollander

.

.. question everything I thought true on this.) However, I did see a correlation with a few egg-bound sinaloans that didn't become bound when moved to larger cages. I know, way too small a sample, only one ssp, etc. Thanks for broadening my mind on this subject.
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Mark

Although we might hear about this issue a LOT on the forums, I'd venture to guess that the proportion of snakes that are actually gravid and become eggbound is not necessarily reflected by this. It would be interesting to see some raw numbers from some breeders, for instance:

Avg Cage Size
Frequency of Egg Binding (# females egg bound compared to number of gravid females altogether, whether in one year, or in a lifetime of breeding).

Also I would be curious as to how many of those becoming egg bound are due to being bred at 18 months, bred at small sizes, etc etc.

So far my own experience is:

1 female California King bred and laid her eggs in a 20 galllon aquarium. I put her in the typical sweater box afterwards, though she's showing indications of double clutching. She's blue, so I should know in a couple of weeks. She had 8 perfect eggs, no slugs, and was hatched in July '01, probably 38 to 42" long. The male she was bred to was also a July '01, same size, kept in the same 20 gallon enclosure. Eggs are due to hatch in a couple of weeks!

1 female Blotched King, bred and laid her eggs in a 15 gallon aquarium. She also is in a typical sweater box now. She, too, was an '01 animal, though not sure of the month. She was bred to a much older male snake, '99 or '98 who had never been bred, and I do not even know if he was cooled. She had 8 eggs and 1 slug, and her eggs will hatch at the end of July.

Both snakes were, and are, handled fairly regularly, and are treated more like pets than like "simply breeders".

Anyway, I would be interested in this discussion.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

>>1 female California King bred and laid her eggs in a 20 galllon aquarium. I put her in the typical sweater box afterwards, though she's showing indications of double clutching. She's blue, so I should know in a couple of weeks. She had 8 perfect eggs, no slugs, and was hatched in July '01, probably 38 to 42" long. The male she was bred to was also a July '01, same size, kept in the same 20 gallon enclosure. Eggs are due to hatch in a couple of weeks!

I meant to say that he was kept in the same SIZE enclosure, not the SAME enclosure.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

This line of thinking could be the start of an interesting data base. Data from breeders could be amassed and some interesting trends might become appearent.

However, the trends would only be as reliable as the data that is given.

Bob

>>However, the trends would only be as reliable as the data that is given.

I agree with you, but I do know that some herpers keep extraordinarily detailed records. My records aren't so extensive, but hey, i have my first two clutches ever incubating and one king possibly planning on double clutching, and another one that was given to me starting to look suspiciously lumpy!

I guess I'm always interested in the "Real" Data since I have a degree in statistics, and I know how a few bits of information from a biased source (a forum where people post more frequently for help than for the simple need to say "snake laid, no egg binding" can skew the picture noticeably. That's why I think that even if you only took the data from a few snake breeders who kept good data, that could be more invaluable than sporadic data from those who do not keep it very well.

Just love the numbers aspect, as well as the critters aspect. Aren't snakes great?
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

You're right, it wouldn't take too many breeders. It would nice to get a nice sample of new breeder and old-pros. Who knows? You might find an obscure combination of husbandry practices results in "trouble" a certain percentage of time at a certain confidence level.

You would of course need some standardized survey forms for the participants. And a certain level of annonimity for the participants and their breeding programs.

Bob

Now ya want me to put together a survey.

Any suggestions on the pertinent questions?

Some that come to mind:

What is the standard size enclosure used to house breeding females?

What species of snake do you breed?

If multiple species of snakes, and multiple cage sizes, please elaborate for each species.

What is your normal feeding schedule for each species?

What criteria or criterium do you use to decide on the first breeding for a never-bred female? (age, length, weight)

How many clutches of eggs do you produce in an average year?

How many of your females go eggbound in a given year?

How many eggbound females have you had altogether (if possible to answer)

Thats all I can think of at the moment.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

I think you want to make the questions even more specific, as in:
For each species, you ask, for each year available,
1) how many females were "bred"? (paired with a male with the objective of producing eggs/babies)
2) how many of those females eventually laid?
3) how many of those that laid laid eggs none of which were fertile? average number of eggs in these clutches? range? (smallest, largest clutches) number of THESE females that retained any eggs (more than xx days, to distinguish merely "normal" delay in completing ovipositing VS true retention or eggbinding?)
4) how many laid eggs at least some of which were fertile? average number of eggs in these clutches? range? (smallest, largest clutches) number of THESE females that retained any eggs
5) how many laid eggs all of which were fertile? average number of eggs in these clutches? range? (smallest, largest clutches) number of THESE females that retained any eggs
You might also want to ask an additional question in each category to determine how many eggs were retained: there IS a difference between one egg left behind and a whole clutch being retained. And it might be--no, would be--meaningful info to determine the outcome of all those cases of retained eggs: eventually laid? after how long? eggs required manual expression by owner, vet or other caregiver? one or more eggs aspirated prior to being passed? eggs surgically removed?

Then you'd also want similar specificity regarding the housing & feeding. For each species and year, the respondent should tell the cage size (I'd base it on square footage of the base of the container, but someone else may have a better suggestion) and feeding, perhaps requiring some kind of weight of food per week as a ratio of each snake's weight. I know this seems hugely complicated, but otherwise the data's almost useless--"I feed several pups (pinks? crawlers? fuzzies?) each week (but how big is the female? (I have breeder hondo females ranging from 425 grams to 1000 grams, for example). Other than weighing some representative food items i don't know how there could be any even general significance to the data--i mean, herpers ESPECIALLY understand the pitfalls of language: "it was six feet long," being a good example of a statement that often proves quite inaccurate when compared to physical data. I can hardly advise callers about feeding, housing, the likelihood of breeding, etc., of snakes, if they can't give me a gram weight, because I've seen people's estimates so hugely off base. As I'm sure mine would be, if i didn't rely on measurement.

Anyway, I think this is all exciting stuff, but i also think that as we ponder how a questionaire should be designed to really produce any meaningful results, it's a lot bigger job than it might have seemed at first. But to do otherwise is merely to gather anecdotal information, and that's what is accomplished with the posts on the forum about single snakes, someone's experience with two snakes over many years, etc., etc. The conclusions expressed should really be expressed as hypotheses and nothing more. In that context, some interesting ideas have been expressed here, and once they can be tested, then we'll have really learned something useful. Until then, "fat" is not a meaningful descriptive term, nor is "big," or feeding "a lot" or "small" cages, etc!

Obviously everyone's contributions have stimulated a lot of thought on my part: Now you're all wishing you hadn't, huh?!

terry

These suggestions may all be reasons such a study is NOT practical at this time. But for a graduate student needing a topic that would genuinely produce results of potential consequence, it could be a great exercise.

You're right, it would be a daunting task. The number of variables for multiple species would be prohibitive. It seems that an initial study should focus on a specific taxa(which ever has the most problems).

Given one specific taxa to study, additional questions and factors could be analysed. Keep the focus narrow to start. I think that is how one would have to start. Develop a methodology and maybe a database framework to use as a template. If its a boondoggle then it gets scrapped; if it proves to be of value, additional data and species could be added. At the very least, we will have all learned the questions that our record keeping should answer. If we can't answer the questions then we need to keep better records.
Bob

The first time was in 1997 on an older Mex-Mex, she laid 13 eggs and was egg bound with one egg for about 4 months before she finally dropped it. She fed aggressively the whole time. She was a big Mex-Mex (length wise) and had a big head (age). I talked to the guy who I sold her too and he said she has double-clutched for him every year since 1998 and has never had a problem. I only had the female for the one year.

The only other time I had an egg bound is this year with one of my Cal Kings. She is an older female ('96) and laid 14 good eggs. She retained her last egg. She still feeds like a pig.

I do breed a lot of my female cal kings at 18 months of age (not all but most-depends on size) and all of my males. And none of them have become egg bound. The only 2 times that I have had egg bound females is from larger, older snakes (mex-mex & cal king).

Also, although I have double-clutched some of my older, bigger corns, I have never double-clutched any of my cal kings.

I do not think that we can prove what causes egg-binding. Giving birth/egg-laying affects females in a lot of species; too many factors IMO

But I agree that exercise is important and that my snakes don't get what they would in the wild, BUT in the wild in most species of snakes, (ie. crotes & rosy boas) once the females become gravid they do not travel very far and end up basking most of the time unlike the males who spend time looking for females and feeding (stalking or ambush). But then again, exercise/or lack of may not be the problem.....

Over-feeding may be the problem, as I think that we (herp industry) have a tendacy to over-feed IMO. I was guilty of power-feeding in the 90's and every year I end up feeding less and less, so who knows.........???

Just rambling...

Kerby...

Many of these ideas posted here could be a possibility but I think diet as far as types of food is the least likely. For one everybody feeds their snakes mice and egg binding is not super common so I think it rules it out maybe not completely or it may be a small contributing factor ??? I really believe its weight if you look at any animal being over weight causes a ton of problems from cancer to diabetes etc.... My friend Mike's Eastern became egg bound last year and it was not an obese snake but she was definitly chubby.

Keith

What is so different about getula getula that leads them to become egg bound with higher frequency?

The diet issue seems significant, but why is one ssp affected more than the other two which are so closely related?

I have seen some really fat breeder floridana/brooksi (on this forum!).
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Chris Harrison

Ive never had a eggbound Floridana or an Eastern for that matter(knock on wood). I think probably some subs are more sensitive to weight than others. I would bet Floridana eat more rodents in the wild than getula getula does, so maybe this is a factor ??? Kevin Enge would be a good one to ask as he has bred tons of Easterns and Floridana.

Keith

Right on...
there are a few things we all can do to prevent these problems..

1) the "40-400" rule advocated by some here - 40" long, 400 g in weight before you breed a female king. yes you might have to wait until "next season", but not too many colubrids are bringing in big bucks right now anyways so what is the rush?
2) as suggested, bigger enclosures, time out of the enclosure to stretch, exercise, get some fresh air.
3) get a little scientific, use the metabolic rate formula put forth by rossi and mader in their books to estimate your animals'
caloric requirements.Simple with a calculator.Then you can buy and feed the appropriate amount of rodents.
4) Keep good records.

-all I can think of right at the moment.
Dave B