Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sometimes I’ve wished there was a little box next to the name of everyone who gives advice indicating how much experience that person has with a particular species or with various herp-related topics. Let’s face it, we all evaluate information based on the credibility of the person giving it. Somebody below said recently that we shouldn’t “give out info on any reptile unless you have owned it for at least 3-4 years.” Does everybody agree that’s a fair test? I wonder how many Kingsnake forum posters would meet that requirement?

So how do we define “experience”? And how can we tell if someone we know only from their online persona has it? I know this was discussed here briefly last year, but people’s opinions might have changed or evolved since then. Anybody care to take a stab at either of those questions?

Joan

That's a tough question. I don't know if there is any useful criteria to judge by.

People who like to prepare before they start something may spend months researching before they get thier first snake and know more before they start than some people I've met who have been keeping dozens of snakes for years. And keep in mind that even the real experts haven't thought of everything, and someone who's just started can still make an observation that everyone else has missed.

For me it sometimes comes down to listening to several opinions, trying to decide for myself which make sense, and if it's about something important and I'm not sure who's right, using thier info as a pointer to research it elsewhere.
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Larry D. Fishel
Side effects may include paralysis
and death but are generally mild.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It sort of depends on the question. But most people without 3-4 years experience don't even have an adult of the species in question, so answering many questions would be sort of tough. But then someone with only a year who has overcome beginner's problems can help other beginners with those problems.
I was just thining, I keep Mueller's sand boas, and the guy who has the most experience of anyone in the country has only had them for 4 or 5 years. The rest of us who have had them for 6 months or less are just sharing any little guess or anecdote trying to figure out how to get them to thrive and breed. That's an odd case, of course.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

you shouldn't “give out info on any reptile unless you have owned it for at least 3-4 years.”
My name is hakiem and, i will stick by what i said. When you raise an animals from a juvenile to an adult and treat it like a pet and not a show peace you start to learn and understand when they want too be out, Hungary, or if there in a bad mood. I think you and that animal Begin to form a relationship. even when the animal is aggressive you start to figure out ways to handle them while giving them the space that they need. A book cant teach you everything, a lot of stuff thats left out or said you have to experience hands on.

"I wonder how many Kingsnake forum posters would meet that requirement?" As for this question i wondered the same thing. i remember a few times when somebody said kids should not get burms because they will end-up ab banding it or selling the snake. But those people talking only have a little 6 foot burm, the part that sucks if you look at the classifieds some of the forum members are selling there snakes because they can no longer care for the snake. So basically the people that fall in this category are Hippocrates. Sorry if i come off too strong but this is the way i feel.

I have only kept herps since september, and i know more than some people who have kept herps for lots longer than me, even herps i dont own. I have read so many caresheets, articles, and books on a bunch of species, even though i probably won't be able to get any until i move out on my own. I resent the fact that you said that because there are people who have kept a herp alive for 3-4 years and yet know hardly anything about the conditions they should be kept in captivity. just because you have kept a herp for 3 years "experience" doesn't mean you know more about the herp than i do. I know more about burms, retics, anacondas, bloods, beardies, iguanas, and many more herps than some "experienced" people who have kept the herps for 3 years.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

What are you going bye? how much can you possibly know from care sheets? A care sheet cant teach you how to understand your burm or retic. All care sheets teach you is a little background history and what they need to survive other than that your on your own or you ask alot of questions on the forum. To tell you the truth most care sheets that i have seen about burms or retics talked about how bad of a pet they made. I'm sorry if care sheets gave out enough info people will spend less time here asking question.

If you just started your herp collection September how much can you know? The only experience you have with a burm or retic is a care sheet. Thats not experience thats reading about the care of a reptile, you cant compare yourself with somebody that has own these snakes for years.

There is a big difference between what one knows and what one has experienced. Technical knowledge is just knowledge that is learned and stored in your mind. You obtain this from reading, and watching and such. This is extremely important because it gives you a baseline to start with, but it will never replace tactical knowledge. Tactical knowledge is the ability to perform. The ability to put your technical knowledge into action is where true expererience shows. Befoer anyone should give advice or disagree with others they need to obtain tactical knowledge and experience or else they truely do not know what they are speaking about. Thay are just quoting passages from books or caresheets. They need to experience it first ahnd and know the proper procedures for dealing with such. Todd

i completely agree in the sense that the only way to gain experience is hands on. I worded my post kind of wrong there, and misunderstood what point 1snakeman was trying to make. What i was trying to say in my post was that even though i and others have only been involved with herps for a short period of time doesn't mean they know nothing about the herp. You said that people shouldn't be giving out info if they haven't kept the herp for 3 years, but people like me know more about propere care and husbandry of that herp than some people who have kept the herp for 3 years. So you are saying that i should not help someone with their herp problems because i am not experienced enough? i know people with 3 years experience with herps who have no clue about the proper care of the species and you think they should be giving out info (most likely the WRONG info) because they have 3 years experience? i who may or may not have any experience with that herp may have the correct information and you say i shouldn't give it out because i have 3 yers experience? Like you said you can't really gain experience by reading care sheets, ariticles, and books but hands on exprience is necessary. Well since you said that then why should anyone listen to the people who post replies to the original post? i mean they are just like caresheets, articles, and books. i mean you said the only way you can gain experience is hands on. You can't teach someone how to handle a snake then why should you not handle a 10 foot burm by yourself? i mean the only way to gain experience is to do everything hands on. I understand what you are saying and semi agree with it but what i am trying to say is that sometimes people with 3 years experience know next to nothing about that herp and people who may have little or no experience with that herp may know how to give it a perfect life (or as close to one as captivity will allow). yet you said that because the person with none or little experience they should not post info. Then if that person knows more about that herp than some experienced keepers of that herp not post?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

Look this is an old post that i made two days ago.

"Hi i think you cant educate or give out info on any reptile unless you have owned it for at least 3-4 years. If you have not raised a retic or rock from a hatch ling to a sub adult, i personally feel that you don't have the experience to give out accurate info. example me, i have a few retics biggest is a 12' 1/2 female. I have raised this female from a baby but still feel uncomfortable giving out info on retics because i have not had enough experience handling retics. what i would like to say about my 12 footer is she is a total sweat heart and I'm glad i bought her. I'M not trying to be a problem just expressing my feelings about this subject."

I don't think I'm incapable of giving good retic info Its just my retic is still a juvenile she's not even two years old. I swear i learn at least 1 new thing about my retics every week. they can be Little things but the keyword is I'm still learning.
now burmese pythons i can give info for days and feel 100% confident in everything that I'm saying. Do you get what I'm saying?
I hope nobody takes my post the wrong way.

For BrianSmith and toddbecker you both had very good post.

ok. now i get more where your coming from, and i respect what you are saying. I understand about not feeling comfortable giving out info because you dont have in your opinion enough experience handling , but i guarentee you that eveytime ANYONE handles a retic,burm,rock,green anaconda, indian, or any other giant python learns how to handle better each time.
A question for you.
are you talking about all herps or just larger snakes?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

IM glad you understand. In my original post i was talking about large pythons, but i feel the same way about all my animals.

“I resent the fact that you said that because there are people who have kept a herp alive for 3-4 years and yet know hardly anything….” – lilroach56

I did not say that. May I gently suggest that you read what I did say one more time?

Thanks,
Joan

sorry about that posted it under the wrong message
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

No problem.

What you think about your question? evrybody gave out there opinions on this subject except you. In your mind what does it take to become experianced? IM not trying to attack you, the last thing i want is to get on your bad side.lol But realy i took the time too express my feelings on this subject can you let us know how you feel? Thank you

Hakiem is my name just to let you know.

Interesting topic.

I have to admit to straddling the fence on this issue. I know people who've kept snakes as long as, or longer than, I have that I give little credit to and people I know who've only kept a species or two for a year that are more knowledgable due to research plus the actual experience with the animals. I've been keeping snakes for about 13 years, starting with common boas and working my way around from there. I've read about tons more animals than I've actually kept. Even so, I don't consider myself an 'expert' of any sort as there is still so much to learn. There are a few species that I've only gotten into in the last year or so and I know that there is still much more for me to learn other than basic husbandry. Even so, I've felt experienced enough in snake keeping to branch out from those first boas into the collection I have today. I tend to research an animal I'm interested in, even if I know that the purchase isn't expected in the near future - if ever. I like to have a basic understanding of the species I'm interested in keeping first to determine if it would fit my requirements of a pet, and second so that if & when I find an animal that I like, I already know the basic husbandry requirements. Once I already have an animal, I still try to keep up to date on new information and will read more on them as I discover new material - even when some of it may be repetitive to what I've already learned. There's also a certain amount of trial and error, especially with species that aren't as prevelant in the pet trade. With new products and more knowledge, comes more experience...it's a continuing process.

I don't believe anyone knows everything there is to know about a given species. I don't think experience can be directly related to the number of years a person keeps an animal (because who's to say they've kept it well?), or the number of animals a person keeps (quality vs quantity). I think it basically comes down to the quality of care an animal receives and the knowledge of the basic needs for an animal to thrive. There's also differences in theory about keeping animals - power feeding vs maintenance diets, what is a proper temperature range for a given species that may range over vast areas, minimalist or naturalistic enclosures, or whether or not to handle them, just to name a few examples. I don't think you have to raise an animal from neonate to adulthood to understand them and their care, but I also don't think someone who only has a neonate and no adult animals has the experience to give advice on adult specimens. It's all relative.

As for determining a person online and their level of experience? Unfortunately we only have their word to go on...they may be genuine experts or novices who think they are. The best we can do is take advice and then compare it to other sources. The best example I can give of this is a reference to a well-known site (which shall remain un-named) that has information on a number of different species of reptiles & amphibians - the author of the site has not kept most of the animals they give information on, and some of the information is down right bogus (such as corn snakes eat crickets). However, the author is well-known and respected for their knowledge of certain species, despite them having incorrect information posted on their care sheets about species other than those they are known for. It is the 'perceived knowledge' the person has that people go to, regardless of actual fact.

I do not have alot of experience with animals, but I do feel somewhat confident about what I say. I do not think that a person can only give advice if they have owned an animal 3-4 years is right because SOME of the people on this forum will not keep their animal for 3-4 years. I know alot of you do have animals that you have had for years, but the average Joe Shmo that comes on here and asked the ever dreaded question to read, come on you all know what it is "how big will my burm get in X amount of time?" I know that people want to know that, hell, that was the first post I think I ever made here. I do not think that it is fair to say that a person who has only had a burm or retic, or hell, even a ball python for that matter had no expererience just because they have only had it 6 months. I think your experience is displayed on the way you post your questions or "answers" to someone else's question or a post that was made, or a debate that is going on. I ,personally, do think that the majority of people that come on this forum are here to ask question that could easily be looked up by performing an extremely complicated task called a SEARCH. Some of the people who come here post the same questions that were asked YESTERDAY, because they are lazy and just want the answer to be there when they want it. Those are the people who do not have, and probably will never have, EXPERIENCE.

In closing, I think experience comes in two different ways.

1. The actual hands on experience, which I am lacking because I have only had my burm for 4 months

2. The actual book smarts to know what to do when things happen. For example, if I see fluid coming from my burms nostrils, I am not going to post here to ask what it is. I know it could be an RI because I have taken the time to read. Now possible solutions to this problem are either a.) take him/her to the vet, or in a mild case b.) raise the humidity/temperature. The way I learned these things are by reading, not by having hands on experience.

I think what this boils down to is laziness. If someone reads and reads and reads, they may have experience, but not the type of experience that you are referring to, which is hands on.

Again, I do not feel like I am an idiot because I have only had my burm for 4-5 months, I feel confident to know that I can give him the best care that I can, and if I can't figure out how to solve a problem that you guys are here to help.

Your comment about the laziness of many posters is dead on. Recently on another forum someone posted a question to the effect of, "Hi, i just did some research and decided that I want this kind of snake, all I need to know are its care requirements and how big it gets and what its temperment is and what it looks like. If you could just post that info here that would be great." That was basically it! Now, I had been researching the same snake before I got one for months, and could have told him the answers even though I didn't own one. I'm not EXPERIENCED per se, but I do know quite a bit about the care requirements and basic temperment of the species just from reading about it.

Another thing is that, in terms of hands-on experience, sometimes a newbie can help a newbie if they're both having the same problem, and one solves it first. I've been in that situation too. And I think that, in that case, sometimes the other newbie can be MORE helpful than an experienced person. A person who has been keeping a herp for 15 years may assume, without meaning to, that the newbie knows certain basic things about a herp's personality that one would have to have been keeping the herp for awhile to know.

..So those are my opinions! (But what is the internet, really, but ads and opinions?) Though I'm a newbie; I could be wrong
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A. Fox

When I read posts, the contributions that I seem to be drawn to are those who COMMUNICATE themselves clearly in a concise, professional and educated manner. If you can't express yourself in a clear and intelligent manner, regardless of your level of expertise, I take ZERO stock in that person's opinion. That sounds quite pompous of me but that is the way I am. I believe in the power of education because I am living proof that with education comes opportunity.

Someone said that a person who has kept a single animal of a species for a prolonged period of time ins't considered experienced worthy of offering input on a particular subject (because they haven't worked with many of the same species; even if that means for a much shorter time frame)....I tend to disagree a bit with that only because someone who has kept a single animal for a prolonged period of time has demonstrated that they have the commitment and dedication to give that animal the proper care and they have also demonstrated that they have mastered certain basic husbandry requrements for that species (and I realize that EVERY snake is an individual, HOWEVER, keeping a normal burm compared to any of the high end burms is EXACTLY the same). I have FAR more respect (and admiration) to the individual/family who has raised a burm from birth, kept it throughout the years, becomes "one" with that animal in knowing every little nuance of that animal's personality and needs. Through thick and thin they have committed to giving that animal the best in care. Oftentimes, these "single species owners" have discovered things that many of us who keep many animals have never noticed. Some of these "out of the box" contributions have proven to be wonderful contributions and things that I have taken to stock in my own approach.

BUT, I will also say that when you have the opportunity to interact with a variety of animals, particularly of the same species, on a LONG TERM BASIS (so, this alludes to those with both long term experience, perhaps 10 years or more, PLUS knowledge and exposure to many herps) you do certainly have an edge when it comes to being considered an "expert".

In the end, though, none of us are experts....do we truly understand these animals? Do we really know what makes them tick? Perhaps, but then again, perhaps not. We are still learning so much.

I have kept herps for many, many years and now on a professional level which I am truly blessed for...I wouldn't consider myself an expert as much as someone who has developed an instinct for this hobby and someone who is 100% committed, dedicated and always striving to improve my knowledge and skills.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

>>When I read posts, the contributions that I seem to be drawn to are those who COMMUNICATE themselves clearly in a concise, professional and educated manner. If you can't express yourself in a clear and intelligent manner, regardless of your level of expertise, I take ZERO stock in that person's opinion. That sounds quite pompous of me but that is the way I am. I believe in the power of education because I am living proof that with education comes opportunity.
>>
>>Someone said that a person who has kept a single animal of a species for a prolonged period of time ins't considered experienced worthy of offering input on a particular subject (because they haven't worked with many of the same species; even if that means for a much shorter time frame)....I tend to disagree a bit with that only because someone who has kept a single animal for a prolonged period of time has demonstrated that they have the commitment and dedication to give that animal the proper care and they have also demonstrated that they have mastered certain basic husbandry requrements for that species (and I realize that EVERY snake is an individual, HOWEVER, keeping a normal burm compared to any of the high end burms is EXACTLY the same). I have FAR more respect (and admiration) to the individual/family who has raised a burm from birth, kept it throughout the years, becomes "one" with that animal in knowing every little nuance of that animal's personality and needs. Through thick and thin they have committed to giving that animal the best in care. Oftentimes, these "single species owners" have discovered things that many of us who keep many animals have never noticed. Some of these "out of the box" contributions have proven to be wonderful contributions and things that I have taken to stock in my own approach.
>>
>>BUT, I will also say that when you have the opportunity to interact with a variety of animals, particularly of the same species, on a LONG TERM BASIS (so, this alludes to those with both long term experience, perhaps 10 years or more, PLUS knowledge and exposure to many herps) you do certainly have an edge when it comes to being considered an "expert".
>>
>>In the end, though, none of us are experts....do we truly understand these animals? Do we really know what makes them tick? Perhaps, but then again, perhaps not. We are still learning so much.
>>
>>I have kept herps for many, many years and now on a professional level which I am truly blessed for...I wouldn't consider myself an expert as much as someone who has developed an instinct for this hobby and someone who is 100% committed, dedicated and always striving to improve my knowledge and skills.
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Glad you posted.
Lora

Whatever one's experience, one should not take it as gospel. Even experienced people do dumb things. In my opinion, the value of forums like this are to present ideas, methods, etc. Then, you take them or leave them. For instance, there is a post about hide boxes. Some people (myself in the past) may forget about providing a hide box, so just raising the issue I think is helpful. Someone who has never owned a snake in their life could suggest something like hide boxes...so my point is just use the forum as an idea exchange and no more.

My Vet says that what we know about reptiles this year, may be obsolete next year. So a serious reply is always welcome when what it is based upon. I read and research everthing that I can get my hands on and then wey the answers as it applies to my case.