Reptile & Amphibian Forums

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Whose stock are they ? They are quite beautiful.

Keith
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My Nj and St.marys animals are from Ted Thompson.

Ted has nice NJ stock. By combining adjacent county localities (ie arbitrary localities) into a larger Pine Barren's (geographic) locality he has significantly improved the overall vitality of the captive line.

BTW Nice pics. Little milks are not the easiest to get good shots of!

Tony,

Thanks for the complements on the photos. They really can be very difficult to photograph. Ted does have some nice coastal lines, many of which are unrelated but we have discussed all that here before. I believe that his NJ coastals are Camden County X Ocean County animals.

Thanks,
J.D.

Tony,maybe just because its your post and I know you like the arguement....lol,but how does MIXING anything increase "vitality"? It will certainly add increased POSSIBLITIES as DNA....but I dont see that affecting vitality for generations.To continue to outcross for the generations it would take to measure this vitality would certainly lose the uniqueness that is each locality......I think that despite your locality view you will admit that there may be as much variation within EXISTING DNA of these animals as there is in crosses.Just another hot-stove topic from a frustrated A-Rodless Bostonian,lol,Jeff

Actually Jeff no I don't have to agree. The correlation between the persistency of a population and its size is well documented. This is because bigger populations posses greater genetic variability and what we are talking about here is a population though be it a CAPTIVE one. Therefore, the more founding individuals you allow into this breeding group the more vital it will be in the long term. In this particular instance, the political subdivisions that bisect the Pine Barrens do not inhibit gene flow and there is no reason (beyond personal preference) to erect complete barriers to gene flow among captive populations along such arbitrary lines. Further, in most cases the locality based variation that you speak of is simply a function of general variation among coastals and the fact that they go through a collecting bottle neck because they can be so difficult to find (this is where you start talking about how many Chuck used to find in S MD). Examples: The reason most Ocean County coastals possess the striped gene is because they originate from two gene carriers, legally collected from a specific locality in that county. In this particular instance, tight locality breeding led to morph production, which, in my view, has absolutely nothing to do with the conservation ethic locality breeding is supposed to espouse! Tyrell County NC coastals are another example. What we consider, in herpetological circles, to be "classic" Tyrell's mostly stem from two individuals that were collected from a VERY specific local (same dump and likely same piece of carpet) in atypical habitat and bear little resemblance to those documented from the more typical coastal habitat in the northern end of the county.

I think what you define as variation is the phenotypic "predictability" when line breeding. In this case you're just starting off with locality types. What I consider variability is the range of phenotypic expression you see within a single clutch. In this regard the tight locality breeding of coastals is merely a short cut towards phenotypic predictability. Though I see nothing wrong with this (in the short term) lets be honest and call it what it is. Its no different than line breeding "peach thayeri (non-variable variable kings LOL) or for that matter hypo gioni.

OR is it a locality-AGE factor.It's my suggestion that milks are not that much more numerous now(maybe in the past)in southern MD than say NJ.....just that the age of the population has led to more genetic(and phenotypic)variability.I think it entirely possible that there has been some kind of massive "die-out"of milks in southern Maryland(maybe due to kingsnake encroachment?)that has increased relative variability within sample size compared to that of other locales.And of course you are right with the NJ stock....as these pics bear little resemblance to any of the lines you speak of.Tony,lets encourage OTHERS to please chime in here!! You and I have gone back and forth alot,lol! By the way,that last post was as even-handed as I have seen from you in a while.....check your temperature,take some pills and have a nice weekend!Jeff

Though I've seen admittedly few wild specimens, the pics Downwardspiral posted looked to me like typical coastals from the Pine Barrens, its the omnipresent striped or spotted morphs DERIVED from Ocean county stock that do not. This has been my exact issue with much of the fervor over locality breeding. In many cases the effects of selective breeding is so profound that hobbyists fail to recognize true wild phenotypes! In these cases captivity is the locality, at least in my view.

Not sure I followed the rest of your last post though, age-local factors and die offs leading to increased "relative variability" and all that. Sounds like relative B ESS to me (LOL).

As for my even handling of the subject, thanks! The guys on the Pit forum kind of moderated my views and I actually get some aspects of locality breeding now though I disavow that claim. (This is not me writing this post) I think my rep on this forum for being a bit unyielding stem from my earlier handling of a certain individual (who, in keeping with th TOS shall remain nameless) but lets just say that my early call that he was a 5H!t h21d and a b5t t l3ck2r were right on the money! I'm sure locality enthusiasts miss having such a vocal advocate shouting the message from the mountain-top but I miss him not! I must admit to being sociologically incapable of not responding to his rhetoric.

Beauty , I like the bright red with the snow white triads

Thanks, I also really like the way the white looks with the black and red. I am sure that it will probably darken up a little with age though.

J.D.

Has anybody ever noticed that GM totally stole their red and white paint color from these guys? Every time I see a late model two-tone red and white chevy truck I think of temporalis. lol
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