Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Being that this is the most widely gleaned page in the chameleon community it seems fitting to reach the potential opinions of expert, intermediate and novice chameleon keepers as well as breeders, importers, exporters,farmers, ranchers,researchers,veterinarians, authors and all that has an interest in chameleons.
A member of the community has offered to set up a monitored list serv for the discussion of the very pertainant topic and very fueled to quick tempered topic the two schools of thought in chameleon importation and captive keeping.
I am asking for people to say if there would be a general interest for that. To do it on a list such as this would lead to intense and unneeded flaming. Thanks, Craig.

Hi Craig,

Even tho' I am relatively new to the cham hobby I have had other animals and reasons for my opinion on CB vs. WC. I have almost posted in response to some folks on this forum but was afraid that what you predict would, in fact, happen. So for one I would be interested to see what both sides have to say about it. So long as it was kept mature and not a lot of name calling, etc.
lele

BTW, notice I did not say what my view is

>>Being that this is the most widely gleaned page in the chameleon community it seems fitting to reach the potential opinions of expert, intermediate and novice chameleon keepers as well as breeders, importers, exporters,farmers, ranchers,researchers,veterinarians, authors and all that has an interest in chameleons.
>>A member of the community has offered to set up a monitored list serv for the discussion of the very pertainant topic and very fueled to quick tempered topic the two schools of thought in chameleon importation and captive keeping.
>>I am asking for people to say if there would be a general interest for that. To do it on a list such as this would lead to intense and unneeded flaming. Thanks, Craig.

I'm very interested, but you are right, it's a controversial topic - also an important one IMO. Count me in, but I'm interested to see how we're going to monitor this considering how these discussions have gone in the past.

Joel Fish

Count me in. Here's a good point to start off with: If it weren't for importation, the only captive breeding would be in Africa and some parts of Europe and asia).

Good topic. I was thinking as well
Import mortality rate, captive mortality rate and breeding success/failure margins to justify the continuation of chameleons for the pet trade
· In country farms such as the Tanzania project fostering captive local animals for breeding and then export sale abroad
· The project of importing animals to Indonesia for captive breeding and then export sale abroad
· Breeders that feel they still want to import animals hoping too successfully breed them to F-5 through F-10
These are some of the questions that second school of thought chameleon enthusiasts are asking and saying enough is enough. This breed of reptile has not over the years of experimentation done well in a captive environment and this experiment should come to an end.
First school wants continue importing and breeding in different methods in hopes that the answers will come in time.
These differences make the chameleon community divided and very hostile at times. Yet there are not too many open minded people that haven’t come to a conclusion the too many of these animals die and suffer annually. This is why these are very important and pertinent topics. It is also why they should be discussed in a civilized format with agreed moderation and rules of engagement. I am waiting to here back from a friend to see if she is prepared to carry out the list serv and moderate these type of controversial topics. I’m hoping many of those people involved in both schools of thought will participate as well. Those involved in the type projects such as farming local animals, importing animals for farming, breeders seeking long term F breeding success, veterinarians, and all interested parties. Those that document cites imports statistics to animals surviving and successfully starting colonies. Adchamers have 135 people in all walks of the hobby that are staunch 1st school of thought contributors. Hopefully rather than play name that pardalis they might come forward and entertain these discussions with their facts and theories. Anyway, this is what I am hoping for, but at any level if a few people can take the time to think this is a good thing. Thanks again, Craig.

Actually, Craig, you don't need another listserve to discuss things like this. You only need to keep the discussion useful and above the table. I don't understand why you think the topic is what gets people angry. Perhaps you should consider the approach you take. I won't accuse you of anything. I only direct anyone who thinks you are serious about a "serious" discussion to look up your posts in the kingsnake archives...or any other listserve you have taken your agenda. Your past speaks loud enough.
I, for one, actually responded to your posts in a calm manner with return questions on the "Chameleons" listserve when you started your crusade. You ignored my posts and jumped feet first into fighting with others who had gotten into personal attacks.
Yes, starting a seperate listserve would be a good idea for what you have in mind. And I am sure the lady you have in mind to moderate is a clear, objective source. If you have changed your color and really want good discussions perhaps you will have a good list. If you are creating something so you can slam people with how many pounds of dead chameleons they are contributing to then you will end up with only those who like to fight and you can all have a great little useless merry-go-round. Go for it, I say. You will create something as worthwhile as what you have to bring to it. What that worth is is really up to you and your moderator.

Bill Strand

You are my father, and the force is with you!

Actually Bill, the lady moderator is staying silent because of that special fire breathing friend of yours.It seems she has been on the recieving end of too many unwarranted personal attacks. This was her idea to approach it this way. You know me Strand.I don't object to telling as it is. Thats what offends people and thats what tends to violate tos. That is what offends you. Honesty and statistics.
On another list that you are fimilar with another level headed member of the herp community is offering some great ideas in a practicle way to address these issues.
Looking to remedy the problem rather than offer after care. Sometimes the death of these animals come because a handfull of selfish people call the slaughter their hobby and their right.
Craig

Craig,
"Sometimes the death of these animals come because a handfull of selfish people call the slaughter their hobby and their right." - agreed and probably one of the farest statements I have heard from you in a while, actually I haven't really seen you post in a while. I agree with Bill, if you want to have a seperate list for this topic then go right ahead, but I really don't see why it can't be dicussed here. As long as everyone keeps and open mind and consider, not agree, with others views then it could be a very good discussion. One problem that usually arises during this discussion is the fact that people that don't care for, breed, or import the animals, like yourself, can only really throw out the numbers and statistics. And then others who do care for, breed, and import the animals may have very different results than your statistics show and don't always look at the entire picture. The ones that prove your statistics correct usually aren't the ones posting so you are stuck with two very different and most of the time one sided views. If we all listen to each other than it can be a very good discusion. One thing that bothers me about the topic is that most of the time old results and statistics are used in the discussion, but people fail to realize that these were in the past and just because it wasn't done properly then, doesn't mean it isn't now or can't be in the future. Although, the learning curve will take quite a few chameleon lives with it.
Paul

That must have come out wrong!
Paul, I am raising for breeding ball pythons. I still have my love for keeping herps and have moved to a species I can be successful with. They bring in a good income supplementation as well.But for now they are income draining.They are very cool though. Does the May useless mass importation of balls piss me off? Yup. It really isn't needed.They do well and breed well in captivity.
Back to the delicate species and how you can help.
I know you are dealing in pardalais and the newer colorful location varieties.I also like you and know you mean the best for your charges.
This said I believe you keep breeding charts and probably keep track of the animals you have sold. This information can prove to be invaluable in identifying where any glitches may be and what cam be done to prevent them.
I am all for the continuation of the hobby and the importation for genetic integrity,but only if the animals are in fact living and successfully breeding beyond the breeders care.
And being that vieleds, panthers and jacksons are considered the hardy species, why aren't these species being proven out and the rest left alone until these are successfully breed to F-5 beyond the breeders hands?
Learning curves? Are you saying you have this down to a science and education will keep all of the animals alive? If so please start teaching. If by learning curve you mean that further experimentation will eventually find the key to captive survival, then what is the time frame and how many animals will this take?
If breeders were willing to disclose these records it may open the minds of skeptics and lead to successful captive chameleon keeping. What do you think?
Oh yeah, besides the huge amount of time, raising and keeping insects are things I do not miss about the hobby.And of coarse the ailments. Craig

> I am raising for breeding ball pythons. I still have my love for keeping herps and have moved to a species I can be successful with. They bring in a good income supplementation as well.But for now they are income draining.They are very cool though. Does the May useless mass importation of balls piss me off? Yup. It really isn't needed.They do well and breed well in captivity.

Agreed, and I didn't mean that you don't breed or keep anything, I was specifically referring to chams.

> Back to the delicate species and how you can help.
I know you are dealing in pardalais and the newer colorful location varieties.I also like you and know you mean the best for your charges.
This said I believe you keep breeding charts and probably keep track of the animals you have sold. This information can prove to be invaluable in identifying where any glitches may be and what cam be done to prevent them.
I am all for the continuation of the hobby and the importation for genetic integrity,but only if the animals are in fact living and successfully breeding beyond the breeders care.

I think that is one of the hardest parts. Knowing what is happening to all the animals after they have been sold can be very tough to keep track of.

> And being that vieleds, panthers and jacksons are considered the hardy species, why aren't these species being proven out and the rest left alone until these are successfully breed to F-5 beyond the breeders hands?

Why, because people want what they can't have and since the other species are harder to keep alive and breed there just aren't as many around. Although it isn't right, it is human nature. One of the best things that can be done is to tighten quotas.

> Learning curves? Are you saying you have this down to a science and education will keep all of the animals alive? If so please start teaching. If by learning curve you mean that further experimentation will eventually find the key to captive survival, then what is the time frame and how many animals will this take?

By learning curve I meant futher experimentation. As far as time frame and how many animals it is really hard to say. But again I think tighter quotas would help. The pardalis quotas is a fair number in my opinion. Given the five main localities being Nosy Be, Ambanja, Tamatave, Sambava and now Ambilobe, that would give each locality 400, which I don't think is a whole lot. If other species would have similiar quotas I think it would help solve a few of the problems.

> If breeders were willing to disclose these records it may open the minds of skeptics and lead to successful captive chameleon keeping. What do you think?

Sounds good.

>Oh yeah, besides the huge amount of time, raising and keeping insects are things I do not miss about the hobby.And of coarse the ailments. Craig

I'm not sure if I could even sleep anymore unless I heard a cricket chirping in the background.
Paul

Banning exportation cannot and will not fix the problem. It's illegal to kill mountain gorillas, but who here will deny that they are in a downward spiral? Making it illegal to export chameleons will make the only ones imported available illegally, and with no regulation.
tighter quotas are a very good start. Not only will wild populations be given more chance to replenish, but Private breeders will be able to add to their stocks.
Look at pardalis, they are imported in limited numbers, but those that come in are very nice, and very expensive. Years ago, anyone could buy a panther, they were cheap, and lots died. Same with parsonii. Now, those coming in are so expensive, most go to private breeders. As an added bonus, since they are not so affordable, the price of C.B. is kept high. this allows the breeder to feasibly continue his hobby, while at the same time forcing a potential buyer to think before purchasing. Think about it. A little kid at a reptile show wants a lizard, then he sees a chameleon, obviously, they're gonna be captivated, and want a chameleon. When the mother goes to buy the panther, she sees it's $150-$250. the kid is not going to get it. That's a lot of money to simply spend without doing some homework. Then the mother sees a little veild for $35. the kid takes it home. I bet any money the mortality rate on veilds is a higher percentage than panthers. People that are going to spend $150 on an animal will invest the proper time and money into its future. While the $35 veild requires the same amount of time and money, chances are it's not as likely to recieve it, because, as I said, it's a $35 animal as opposed to a $150 one.
The mass marketing of veilds has put them in the position Iguanas were in 5 years ago. When I bought my first iguanas, they were over $40 for a baby! We put so much into them. Now, at $5, they practically throw away pets, it's disgusting.
The fact that the ignorant masses do not know how to care for a chameleon should not be reason to stop importation totallly. I just bought some WC deremensis that were really cheap--almost disturbingly so. I keep thinking that they shouldn't be inexpensive. I honestly hope that Tanzania reduces their quotas, so that they don't end up like veilds, or worse, like parsonii. So accessable as W.C., that there is not a desire for expensive C.B. , and when they are no longer available as W.C., the demand is up, but cannot be met because nobody bred them. Even Jacksonii have become somewhat pricy as C.B.
I Totally banning them won't solve it. the problem is not US. the problem is the mass importation. Who is buying all these senegals and gracilis anyway?
One of my good friend, Pete Mackevich one said that he'd love to get the people in charge of importing Senegal chameleons, Red Agamas, and horned lizards, and lock them up. All of these at the time had a mortality rate of about 100% within the first few months. AND, all of these were imported in such quantities that they were common "pet-store-fodder." The stores sold them, they were profitable to sell, so on their end, it didn't matter if they lived or not.

I agree with quotas, better animals imported with realistic price tags. And as you posted maybe some animals shouldn't come in at all.
I really believe since the experimentation is going to continue that records be kept and posted. And efforts be made to track the animals sold for their health and breeding conditions. This is the information that will validate continued effort to captivate these creatures or prove it to be a failed experiment.
Craig

I don't recall being offended. That is quite the broad brush to say I am offended by honesty. Now, it would be accurate and evidence you read my post to say that offensive people are offensive...but, then, that is their intent, isn't it?

"Sometimes the death of these animals come because a handfull of selfish people call the slaughter their hobby and their right."
Yep, let the level headed, open-minded discussion begin!

Listen, if you really want to do something useful, how about taking this to the ADCHAM listserve? It is there you will find business people, researchers, experienced hobbyists, and people who have been around long enough to know the sources of your statistics and know enough about the chameleon world to put together some useful ideas. Kingsnake is a beginner list. Most of these people are here to figure out the basics. Yes, they will be easy for you to bowl over, but how about you work with people who know chaff when they see it and can pick out what is worthwhile amongst the hysteria? Of course, the ADCHAM people won't let you get away with loosely threaded logic, but if you are right then you have nothing to worry about!
But enough of this. What are you waiting for? Go start your listserve! I am sure there are plenty of people that can't wait to get you "telling it like it is" every day in their email!
Bill Strand
PS. Sorry, to those who checked the kingsnake archives for their preview of what Craig would be like on his own listserve. It appears the good ones have been removed from the database. Must be because the moderators were offended by his "honesty".

Bill, you never fail to ammuse yourself. Want to mentor me into your group? last time I looked they were still playing name that pardalis and admiring copulation photos.
Craig

where the chameleons are dying. It is also the list that that group you mentioned all come to on a regular basis to read only.In some of your(that group)cases it could be considered returning to the scene of the crime.
Do you have any more cute quips for the 100# dragon. She reads but will not post here. Doesn't want to divide or close another list with the open minded approach taken to different ideas that is generally displayed. Craig

As I am sure everyone who is familiar with Craig knows he loves to debate, the only problem is he is unwilling to listen to anyone else’s side and take it into consideration. Just keep this in mind before you attempt to put an effort into defending your view(s). Personally I would rather concentrate on improving the import/export and captive conditions in regards to chameleons through education, publication of "proper" detailed husbandry notes, and captive breeding. As for Craig, I say we just ignore him.
-----
Justyn
Intense Herpetoculture

Good advice Justyn.Clearly Bill and yourself seem to be open to other ideas Craig