Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i'm in a hurry, so this is pasted from my live journal. i hope the writing doesn't sound too odd. but the moral of the story- switch your geckos to silkworms! or something else low in fat (my vet actually recommended red worms, but i have yet to stray that far from what i was taught). my vet & i have had other long conversations (e.g., oversupplementation with calcium or vitamins can mineralize their internal organs & lead to death by 1 year of age!), that dealt with mistakes in common husbandry methods for leopards, but jeeves fell prey to the high fat & low nutritive value in more common feeder insects (mealworms and crix). i loved jeeves a lot. and i don't expect everyone to believe me. but if jeeves' death could make a tiny difference, maybe extend the life of one other gecko, it would be great. so please consider going the silkworm route, maybe even just part of the time:

last night i got the call from the vet about the preliminary necropsy results for jeeves. apparently, she had (may be misspelled) xanthomitosis. this is when their diets are too high in fat. and for her first years, i fed her mealies and sometimes crickets, with very rare superworms and waxies. just like everyone else. so i feel a little better because he said it might have been too late for her to recover (because i switched her over to silkworms as soon as i knew better, at the vet's recommend). i also gave the go-ahead for him to seek out more specific results with the histopathology guy. he said that sometimes, if they fast, in the midst of changing to silkworms, it can trigger the failure of organs that are already close to failure, in geckos that have xanthomitosis. (and she did balk at eating them, after her first few.) it's also not entirely understood, some animals can live longer, with fatty diets. so, jeeves was like me- not a very high metabolism... i feel better, because i did try and get her to switch over. she had been on the standard hobbyist's diet for the longest, being the oldest. so, i think now, the rest of my geckoes may recover. i am sorry that i learned the truth (hidden from hobbyists) too late to help jeeves. and if there was some other proximate issue, i'll find out. i will miss her so much. she was a good little gecko.
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marla
currently: 0.1.0 axolotls, 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 1.6 leopard geckoes, 0.0.20 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

First off, very sorry to hear about your loss. I have a question though, how much exercise did jeeves get? I have read many articles that say mealies are fine for a staple and as long as they get enough exercise, the fat is kept to a healthy level. Just trying to get a little more info on the situation because I do feed mealies as a staple, but Jak also gets a good deal of exercise.

well, a moderate amount. i took her out a little bit, but not daily, until recently. she lived most of her life in a 20L, and was a climber. so she seemed active to me. but, i mean, not really in human terms.
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marla
currently: 0.1.0 axolotls, 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 1.6 leopard geckoes, 0.0.20 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

I have a hard time believing mealworms and crickets were the problem...its not just small time hobbyists who use them...the most well known and respectable breeders feed them too. I don't believe I've ever heard one other person say they had mealworms and crickets kill thier leos... Obesity maybe if you feed them way too much without supplementing them properly...but not just from being fed mealworms and crickets.
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Christina

1.3.1 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

that was initially my reaction as well. but i supplemented properly, and definitely did not overfeed. i think mealies are more the issue than crickets. and it has a lot to do with what you gutload them with. i completely respect people disagreeing with me about this. i guess i'm just biased, because i'm pre-vet, and can agree with my veterinarian's arguments. i didn't mean to sound snotty. i just really wish that some good could come out of this.
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marla
currently: 0.1.0 axolotls, 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 1.6 leopard geckoes, 0.0.20 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

I'm prevet as well. You didn't sound snotty. I just know that are plenty of vets out there that give faulty info...I think being prevet makes it more obvious than not being prevet. I myself have worked for 2 different vets, and all of my friends have worked for different vets, as well as gone to yet other vets, plus I've heard many horror stories of bad vets. I just have a serious problem believing that mealies are too fatty...a lot of the big breeders feed mealworms as a staple with crickets occasionally...and I've never heard a single one say they had a leo die because the mealies were too fatty...and I know most of them get necropsies done on any leos they have die.
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Christina

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

(for people that haven't read the previous posts- the issue is concerning diet & whether certain diets that are common can cause death.)

i guess i'd say that i see it the opposite way. many breeders are constantly upgradng their breeding stock, as well as selling the majority of the animals they hatch out. the bigger the breeder, *in general* the less they are interested in keeping their animals like pets (i.e. keeping the animal spoiled & maximizing longevity, etc.). so it's my opinion that veterinarians that specialize in herps & research are going to be the #1 authority on optimal husbandry conditions, not websites, books, common practice, or breeders. and my veterinarian is one of those- he has a practice that is almost exclusively exotics & reptiles, and is constantly publishing in conjunction with his histopathologist. i travel a pretty massive distance to see him, just because he's so higly reccommended in oregon. anyways, him & his histopath guy are doing jeeves' necropsy together. so i'm inclined to believe what they say. apparently, it's just like people- some do fine eating fatty foods, other don't. some have higher cholesterol, some don't. but what you feed them has something to do with it. also, mealies & crickets can have widely varying nutritive value, depending on how you gutload them, but mealies are, in general, fattier than crickets.

i was hoping to get people thinking about this, so i hope i have. however, i don't personally really want to talk to much more about the issue, because i'm starting to feel a bit personally attacked, without any agreement or even willingness to think about it from other forum members. and i'm extra sensitive, because i just lost my baby girl.

i will post again if the tissue analysis finds any other issues or problems that could have killed my baby.
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marla
currently: 0.1.0 axolotls, 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 1.6 leopard geckoes, 0.0.20 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

I'm sorry...I wasn't trying to attack you. I didn't know who your vet was, I was commenting in general that there are a lot of vets that will tell you things without really knowing what they're saying is true. I didn't really mean big breeders like tremper when I said that, I really meant some of the smaller breeders that have been around for a long time. I'm still a bit skeptical that mealies are the problem...but I dunno, I guess I'd just want more info before I'd believe it was true. Again, I wasn't trying to attack you, and I'm truly sorry you felt that way!
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Christina

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

>>I'm sorry...I wasn't trying to attack you. I didn't know who your vet was, I was commenting in general that there are a lot of vets that will tell you things without really knowing what they're saying is true. I didn't really mean big breeders like tremper when I said that, I really meant some of the smaller breeders that have been around for a long time. I'm still a bit skeptical that mealies are the problem...but I dunno, I guess I'd just want more info before I'd believe it was true. Again, I wasn't trying to attack you, and I'm truly sorry you felt that way!
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>>Christina
>>
>>
>>2.3 leos
>> -0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
>>
>> -0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
>>
>> -1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
>>
>> -1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)
>>
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Sorry, I hit the button too fast.

Hepatic Lipidosis, or "fatty liver disease" is not necessarily caused by diet or exercise in Leopard Geckos. It is caused when they have been off food for a long time, and the fat reserves in their tails and bodies become motile. The liver cannot process that much fat, and becomes clogged up and fails. The cause of death can be Hepatic Lipidosis, or Fatty Liver Disease, but what you need to ask is what caused the gecko to stop eating and develop the fatty liver disease in the first place.

I lost 17 Leos about 3 years ago (and had many more sick) to Hepatic Lipidosis. I had 5 necropsies performed, and all had the same diagnosis. The final necropsy was performed my Dr. Frederic L. Frey, the world's most renowned reptile Pathologist, and he found that my geckos were actually being poisoned from crickets that had been cultured on moldy food. The liver disease is what actually killed my geckos, but the true cause was mycotoxic poisoning. As soon as I changed cricket vendors, I never had another case, and my sick ones made a complete recovery.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com