Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In the previous message called update on ornate I talk about my ornate box turtle who is egg bound and I am getting some conflicting information and I just need more opinions. If ANYBODY can give me there opinion that would be great. All the info should be in those messages. But basically she has 2 very large eggs that take up about 1/2 her body so I opted for the surgery to remove the eggs.... Please I need all the advise possible b/c this is a very expensive surgery and I am willing to do it but if it is unncessary I am confused !!! The eggs just seem soooooooo big I don't want to lose her trying to lay the eggs and I really trust my vet I have been going to him for quite some time. But the advise I am getting is saying that I am jumping the gun..... and I trust you people too........
Thanks
Christina
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1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

get the surgery

Can you elaborate on why you think I should and have you ever had any experience with this.
Thanks
Christina
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1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

While you're waiting for responses, you could check the archives for more information, which you might find to be useful.
I had searched earlier (just did a search for "egg bound" and found lots of mentions of Oxytocin (sp?) being used to induce contractions, before resorting to surgery.
I want to be clear about this: I'm not trying to talk you out of having the surgery done, if its absolutely necessary, but surgery itself comes with its own risks, too.
Good luck with her!
Stephanie

Thank you so much for looking stuff up for me I really appreciate that. I had looked through this years info but not hte archives. My vet did orginally discuss the use of oxytocin when he felt that there were eggs and when we saw the size of them we were concerned that if we did the oxytocin and they got stuck then it would be even worse. It is just a very scary thing to be dealing with and I just want as many opinions as possible. I do trust your opinion tremendously I have seen many of your posts before so I hope that you do not take offense to me look for more.
I will keep you informed.
Christina
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1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

You're doing the smart thing by asking for different opinions.
Regards,
Stephanie

First of all, I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER heard of a turtle being SPAYED. Turtles do NOT have a uterus. I happen to have a pretty small ornate that produces 4 huge eggs a summer, two at a time. They definately would take up much of her body. They look like dinosaur eggs. I don't know if things can be different for turtles that are housed indoors, but it isn't even close to laying season yet. My 3 toeds and ornates never lay eggs before mid to late June. Your turtle is eating WELL, not a sign of illness although I've never had an eggbound turtle.

I have heard of turtles DYING from surgery and its one thing to accept the risk if you are SURE your turtle is in imminant danger, but I am not so sure of that. And if your vet can't give you a GOOD explanation as to why she need surgery and more conservative methods can't be tried first, I would back off this. HOW did he determine that she is eggbound?
Did he do an X-RAY? If the egg is starting to harden, then she might be getting close to laying it.
Is your vet on any of these lists?
http://www.arav.org/Directory.htm
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/

I don't understand why she would have lost weight, if she has been eating well, is hydrated and has eggs?
Mine have usually gained weight right before they nest.
How much does she weigh right now? I can compare that with the weights of my ornates. Lots of red flags here.

I would postpone this surgery until you can get more info.
Ornates are much more sensitive than 3 toeds.
There are two good yahoo groups on box turtles, if you haven't already, I would join those and post about this.
There is a vet that posts here occasionally. If I can find a post of his I'll let you know and maybe you could contact him.

Tess, or Greg are you reading???

Chris Tabaka DVM posts here occasionally under the
user id "tortvet". Use the seach forum function and
search for the name and user id and you'll pull up some
old posts and can email him through the kingsnake mail system. See if you can get him to read your thread. I hope he doesn't mind, but you need to get an idea from someone if this vet is giving you good advise.

Yes my vet is listed on the hervetconnection I am not sure about that other site I have never been on it.
Well she weighs 330 grams (I think and she was about 360) when I first got her. She does eat well mostly her live stuff she has not touched any of her fruits or vegetables in a while I even tried baby food and she would not go for it.
I am going to post pics in a minute of her size and I am going to draw on there what I saw in the x-ray of how big she is.
Now I just went to take these pics and these eggs are actually bulging out of her back area between the her legs and tail they are pretty big. I just worry that she can not pass them.
Thanks
Christina
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1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

Lisa,
You're making some excellent points, and in an effort to help Christina I was looking through "Turtles of the US ...", and the chapter on reproduction (ornates) states that one of the author's captive ornates that is active year round has laid as early as mid-March...
I also wonder of some of the weight loss is due to dehydration: the setup as described sounded to be lacking in humidity, and the sticky eyes could be a result of dryness, too.
If this were my turtle, I'd replace the current substrate with dirt, compact it, soak the turtle regularly and give her the opportunity to dig a proper nest and try to lay the eggs herself. If she has trouble and strains alot etc., thats when I'd consider surgery.
Stephanie

Is your vet experienced with reptiles? Why do you think that she is eggbound? I have had a lot of egglaying box turtles, but never a problem. Does she have somewhere to lay her egss? That would be the biggest problem I can think of for her getting that way. Mine were housed outside, so they had plenty of nesting sights available.

yes my vet is experienced with reptiles he is even listed on the herpvet website. He is very good in fact I think he is the best exotic vet in the area and I know that several zoos, nature centers and museums and stores use him and reccommend him so I trust the vet.
I did not know she was egg bound, I do not breed my turtles she is by herself. She is housed in doors and half of her tank as several inches of cypress mulch that she does bury herself in. I had taken her to the vet b/c her eyes were a little puffy and I thought she had a vit a deficiency which in this area and this time of year is fairly common, many of my friends turtles need shots this time of year too. HOwever that turned out to be find but she had dropped weight and the vet felt the eggs so he x-rayed her.
We discussed the options of either inducing with the use of oxytocin or surgery, however these eggs take up most of her body they are as wide as she is and almost as tall both of us agreed that it would be hard for her to pass them. I also was afraid that she would try to lay them and then have difficulty. Having never dealt with an egg laying turtle I would not know what to do.
THank you for your advise
Christina
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1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

Here is a pic of the underside of my little ornate. I drew in the size of the eggs that I saw on the x-ray that the vet take and to me they just look way to big to come out. They are like the size of a chicken egg.
Christina

-----
1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

Are the eggs positioned roughly where you have them on the photo? If they are I would think that would be normal.
The size doesn't really worry me. If you click on the link below, the photo shows 7 eggs in a container. The five eggs on the top of the photo, that are in the process of hatching, are 3 toed eggs. The two long, huge eggs at the bottom are ornate eggs. They came from my smallest adult female Yertle, who weighs 300 grams and is roughly 4 inches long. Somewhere I've got a photo of those eggs with a tape measure next to them and if I find it, I'll post it. Anyway, when I dug up those two eggs, I was astonished. They easily would take up well over half her body cavity. Proportionally, the ornate eggs were much larger relative to the size of the turtle, then the 3 toed eggs were.

I would really be leary about taking a turtle who is eating and not exhibiting any discomfort, nest digging, straining, into having major surgery tomorrow. I'd keep a close eye on her and try to get some other opinions. I would check out the yahoo forums I mentioned. Try to get in touch with the herpvet I mentioned. Billsboxturtles.com has some forums. Kingsnake has a forum related to eggs, breeding for reptiles in general.
Turtlehomes has a yahoogroup forum. I don't think any of us who have responded here have had any experience with this as far as I can tell, but we've read about it. I just wouldn't be in a rush to do it, I'd take a few days and try to find someone thats had some experience with it. The regulars on this forum that might have had experience with this haven't responded yet.
Tess and Greg run one of the yahoogroups and it is a very active group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boxturtlelist/?yguid=117178559

I don't have experience with this problem, but I've read enough to make me somewhat cautious. Why does the vet consider this turtle to be eggbound and not just gravid? Almost every description I've read about egg binding describes the turtle as losing its appetite and exhibiting discomfort.

Please keep us posted!
Ornate eggs

I really appreciate everybodies advise and opinions I took many of them very seriously. However I did send her in for the surgery. BUT before I left her there I had printed out many or your responses with all of your questions and even the picture of the eggs etc and I brough them to my vet. Now my vet I trust him a lot I have worked with him both personally and on a business level and he is wonderful man and I showed him everything.
What we determined was that he was concerned about waiting too long b/c yes she was still eating but he did not want to have to wait until she was deteriorated and then have to put a feeding tube in her. He feels that he is fiing the problem before it gets too serious. He has actually just done this surgery a week ago on a turtle where the women DID decide to wait and things were much more difficult b/c the turtle had deteriorated so much in those 2 weeks. This way Lily will be strong and will have a better chance of survicing the surgery. Also the eggs were slightly larger then in the picture I posted, I was trying to do that from memory and when looking at the x-rays again they were bigger and they were starting to harden. So his opinion was that a small turtle could pass large eggs b/c they are leathery with these hardening she could not pass them. He was over going to re x-ray before starting the surgery and make sure of the sizes. He also commented taht this is a big surgery for them as well and if he didn't feel that he had to do he would rather not.
My mistake on the uterus thing, he will be removing the ovaries so that this will not happen again, which after this scare I do not think I would breed her.
Sorry for the lengthy emails again thank you ALL!!! I will keep you all posted and hopefully he will have pictures for me to post he said that if things go will he will take pictures for me.
Christina
PS He is going to save the eggs for me just in case so I will have to do some research on how to take care of hte eggs unless anybody knows how.
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1 Russian Tortoise (Willy)
1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
2 Bubbling Frog
2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
1 Dwarf Megophrys
1 Rainbow Burrowing Frog??
1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
4 mice (Gabby and friends)
1 dog (Holly)
2 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband