Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As I was contemplating the use of shelf liner for a few of my cages I decided to do a google search on the safety of pvc. Most shelf liner including duck brand is made of a soft pvc material. I have worked in the plastics manufactureing industry for 13 years now and know of the dangers of pvc fumes. I will include links to some the sites that made me decided against shelf liner. I'm by no means suggesting that your dragons health will suffer on these products, but it is just something to consider, like when making the decision to use sand or not. When reading these links, keep in mind that the heat of a beardies cage likely accelerates the release of some of the compounds mentioned, this is why it is not recommended to drink from a garden hose that has been in the sun.

Links:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww18eiv.htm

http://www.parrotparrot.com/birdhealth/pooh.htm

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~envhl565/hot/hot/plastics.html

http://www.envirodocs.com/vinyl_ie_pvc_dangers.htm

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

The shelf liner is used on the cage FLOOR. The temperatures on the floor of the cage actually run around 80 - 85 degrees. Shelf liner is not used on the ELEVATED basking site where the temps are much higher. Therefore, I see no problems or hazards with using shelf liner.

my 2 cents LOL
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

I know how it's used lisa...lol. Read the links and do a search of your own, that's all I'm suggesting here. What I already know about pvc and what I read in my search was enough for me to decide against it and stick with my current substrates.

>>The shelf liner is used on the cage FLOOR. The temperatures on the floor of the cage actually run around 80 - 85 degrees. Shelf liner is not used on the ELEVATED basking site where the temps are much higher. Therefore, I see no problems or hazards with using shelf liner.
>>
>>my 2 cents LOL
>>-----
>>Lisa
>>Cricket free babies!
>>www.beginnersbasics.com
>>
>>
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

I did read those articles.....

Birds chew.... Beardies don't LOL

Anyway, I have heard this very same argument over melamine being used for cages and that at high temps it also releases toxic fumes and is harmful for pets, etc.

Not arguing, just stating my opinion and that is that out of all the possible choices for substrates out there, I am sticking with what I believe to be the safest and most sanitary choice for my dragons..... and that is shelf liner.

By the way, what is it you currently use? Just curious. My hypo orange GG female was raised on mulch by her breeder.

Oh and I am on AIM if your not busy
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

>>
>>Anyway, I have heard this very same argument over melamine being used for cages and that at high temps it also releases toxic fumes and is harmful for pets, etc.
>>

sigh... I guess this means teflon-coated floors are out of the running as well.
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PHWyvern

Okay, this is a slightly different form of PVC but the bottoms of my chameleon cages are made from PVC board. I have yet to notice those deteriorate, but they do stain easily.
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groups.msn.com/JEChameleons
0.1 Chameleo Calyptratus
1.1 Furcifer Pardalis (Nosy Be)
1.0 Chameleo Melleri
1.0 Ball Python
0.0.1 Golden Tree Frog
0.0.1 Crested Gecko
0.0.1 Bearded Dragon

Yeah, I use the same type of cages for my Rhacodactylus. The bottums are fomed pvc and do not contain the plasticizers that make pvc soft and flexible.

>>Okay, this is a slightly different form of PVC but the bottoms of my chameleon cages are made from PVC board. I have yet to notice those deteriorate, but they do stain easily.
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>>groups.msn.com/JEChameleons
>>0.1 Chameleo Calyptratus
>>1.1 Furcifer Pardalis (Nosy Be)
>>1.0 Chameleo Melleri
>>1.0 Ball Python
>>0.0.1 Golden Tree Frog
>>0.0.1 Crested Gecko
>>0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

very interesting reading. I think the risk is realtively low for our dragons. With these products, I think the warnings are more geared toward humans and long term effects like cancer. The chemicals are the same that is used in medical products like intravenous catheters, IV tubing and bags. There has been a great deal of debate about them for a while now. I think if they could pin cancers and reproductive problems on the PVC in these products the lawyers would have sued the pants off of Abbott industries by now, LOL.

For now I think I will stick with the shelf liner just becasue of the ease for me. I know that sounds really selfish, but for me sand is a pain in the patootey (that is butt for you youngsters ) I hate sifting it and it still looks dirty. Plus it makes my dragon dusty! Thanks for the links.
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Stacey

EVERYTHING CAUSES CANCER!If anyone finds any problems with it I am sure we will find out. In the mean time shelfliner is cheap, nice looking doesn't stain and is easily cleaned.

>>I hate sifting it and it still looks dirty. Plus it makes my dragon dusty!

Blue calci-sand is great if you want a blue tinted dragon (found that out once with a pair of western hognose snakes).
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PHWyvern

If you do, I'd change it out asap
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Ross

1.0 Bearded Dragon (Fuego)
2.1 Roommates (require more cleaning up after than the dragon)

Apparently humor is lost.

I never claimed I housed dragons on calci-sand - just hognose snakes.
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PHWyvern

Until then it's shelf liner for me as I highly doubt my dragons are in more danger with it then with anything else I could use. Lets see danger from repti carpet/indoor outdoor carpet chemicals, sand & dirt impactions, respiratory infections from dusty substrates. Substrates that harbor bacteria and molds. pine shavings, food dyes, preservatives, cleaning agents, gees even the Tupperware, and plastic containers we keep our foods in etc. I could find three or four sites that are against the use of any of these for one reason or another, and at least 6 that will cause cancer in lab rats who are fed or ingesting levels of any of them daily or one element that they contain for a period of time. Seems everything has a down side but the dangers, and risks must be weighed. If you have something better in mind I would love to know what it is, as I'm always looking for things that will give my dragons the best possible chance for long healthy lives with me?
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