Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been reading quite a bit about the pros and cons of different substrates. I would like to hear what experienced people actually use, please post what substrate you use and why you chose it.

>>I have been reading quite a bit about the pros and cons of different substrates. I would like to hear what experienced people actually use, please post what substrate you use and why you chose it.

I use shelf liner now and will not switch back to anything else. It is easy to clean and keep sanitary and looks nice.
I have used sand, etc in the past and I have found that since switching I have less problems with parasites, etc.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

I use ecoearth for mine and havent had any problems with it. Its that dirt stuff that comes in a block that you add water to to expand (it also dries extremely quickly, less than a day and its all dry, so high humidity has never been a problem) He is an adult, a little over two years old (when he was a baby i kept him on paper of course.) He eats both his veggies and bugs out of dishes or from my hand, so he never ingests it. and im sure since all it is is ground up coconut fiber (dirt, basically) if he swallows a little I'm not too worried about it. If you click my link below and scroll all the way to the bottom, theres a pic of my tank with the substrate. I love the way it looks, its very easy to spot clean, and Pharoah does well on it.

Pharoah's Page

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~Melissa~
1.3 Leopard geckos (Guido, Oasis, Gypsy, Marli)
1.0 Bearded dragon (Pharoah)
1.0 Hog Island Boa (Michelangelo)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko (Picasso)
1.0 Ferret (da Vinci)
0.1 Chinchilla (Eevie)
And Jack the cat!

Melissas Menagerie

We use paper, paper towels on babies and newspaper on adults. It's cheap, sanitary, absoarbs moisture, readily available, and is easy to deal with. I've been tempted by the shelfliner but haven't actually tried it yet. I would definitely avoid things that can cause impaction and/or harbor parasites (repti-anything, calcisand, bark, etc).

Sean
Heart Mountain Herps

Paper towels for hatchlings and small juvies.

Newspaper for large juvies/sub-adults/adults.

Pros: Easily changed and replaced, no chance of impaction, as sanitary as you are going to get with reptiles in my opinion. When the substrate is soiled the entire sheet is thrown away, cage rinsed down, new paper replaced. No cleaning/soaking of substrate/carpets needed.. just replace as needed.

Cons: Ugly for those interested in nice looking setups. Crix can crawl under paper and cause dragons not to find food to eat and you have to be careful they are removed at night to protect your dragons.

We've used sand, bran, kraft paper, liner, nothing, and reptile carpet. Newspaper still in our opinion offers the most sanitized way of housing your dragon unless you are able to constantly remove and replace liner and new reptile carpet. This holds especially true for hatchlings that go all day long.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

I use paper towels for my hatchlings because the are most prone to impactation. I have read that you shouldn't use sand until they are atleast 13in. My big male is on sand. He has no problems. I just made a custom enclosure with fake rock backround and play sand and everything and put my babies in it to see how they would react. They immediatly began eating the sand so I took them right out. If you have any doubt at all, DONT use sand.

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I have:
1.1 Kankakee Bulls
1.0 veild chameleon
0.1 corns
0.1 az king
1.2 tiger sals
0.1 3-toe box turtle
0.1 Crotaphytus collaris
1.1 Crotaphytus binctores
0.1 desert kings
1.0 Bearded Dragon (german giant)
0.1 Bearded Dragon (orange)
1.2 Bearded Dragon (red sandfire X yellow pastel/red sandfire)
1.1 Bearded Dragon (Citrus X yellow pastel)

I have used both playsand and paper towels. Paper towel is great because it can be cleaned easily, but like everyone said, crickets hide under it. Currently we have one dragon on sand and the other on paper towel. But when I have to clean up his nasty little messes, I take out that part of the sand and replace it with fresh sand. But, it is also what YOU are comfortable with, as everyone has differing opinions about whats good and whats bad.

Paper towel for babies, definately. Because I don't keep alot of reptiles at the moment, my preference for adult beardies is wheat bran. I like the look and the smell of it, I find it easy to poop n scoop, it clumps around solid and liquid waste, and my guys have always liked digging and burrowing in it. Its very affordable, I do a complete cage change monthly for under $4cdn. It passes through them easily if they pick some up when eating as well.

The downside is that wheat bran is not friendly to in-cage misting. Food and water dishes have to be kept higher (I keep em up on flat rocks, several inches above the bran), otherwise bran gets tracked in and it gets gooey. Wet dragons can also get gooey if they run through it. Everything heavy gets put in the cage first after cleaning, so no one gets squished by digging under rocks and having them slide. If you have more than a couple of lizards, it might take up too much time as you have to take your guys out to hand mist them, and the bedding has to be turned regularly to keep it fresh and not miss anything icky. I use high-quality bran, so far I haven't had a problem with dust, but I know some people have found bran too dusty for their guys.

As a side note, I keep my iguana on linoleum tile, the left-over sell offs you get at building stores for dirt cheap. I put newspaper over the tile, and I find it easy to wrap up the newspaper, wash down the tile, and put down fresh newspaper. He is only at the bottom of his enclosure to poop, so I don't have to worry about taking much in and out, or him tracking through anything. I can mist down his cage without any problems, and I imagine it would work well for any beardie too.

I use the shelf liner now and so far it's been the best I've been able to find. I like it cause unlike paper substrates it stays on the bottom and the live foods are less likely to hide and come out at night. I like that I can spot clean it daily, and always have nice clean cages for my dragons, and also for company when they come over and look in all my cages LOL. I had much less problems with this then anything else I tried, and I ran the whole list at one time or another. Soil, sand, carpets, paper towels, newspaper, butchers paper, and the list goes on. I would either stick to a paper substrate or the shelf liner as it's really clean for the dragons, and easy to keep clean for us. I personally stay away from anything that can be ingested and cause impactions
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Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

Like many on this forum, I have used many different kinds of substrates and have never had problems with any. I currently use a product called Cel-sorb, and a brown textured paper probuct I purchase form a packaging company. The Cel-sorb is a recycled newsprint product that is easy to spot clean and fights odors pretty well. They can and do ingest it sometimes when feeding and would only recommend it for adults.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Thank y'all for taking the time to answer. I noticed several people said 'shelf liner', is this the waffly plastic stuff? I think I will either go with this or with the high quality paper substrate being sold over on the classified forums for reptile cages, it comes precut or on rolls, they guy sent me a free sample and it looks pretty good but I like the idea of shelf liner also since I can get that from Walmart.

Yeah it's kinda waffle like except there is no holes through it. I saw some shelf liner with little holes the other day, but these are a full sheet no holes and the backing is like rubber non-slip material and the top feels a little smoother then the bottom side, and more of a smooth plastic feeling but the dragons get a nice grip on it, and it cleans up nice. Chris Allen use to use that Kraft indented paper you are talking about, and he use to buy it at Uline.com and buy it in rolls, and cut it to size himself with a paper cutter. Think it's cheaper through Uline then to buy it already cut in stacks. Here is the url for that. copy & Paste.
http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_1961.asp

You can see the shelf liner at this site www.duckproducts.com or copy & paste this Url
http://www.duckproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=5&subid=23&plid=104
This is a close up pic of what the top material looks like

This is a pic of what the back non slip side looks like

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Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

Why can't they sell this stuff in Sweden too!

I use bran. That is the best I have found here in Sweden. It is not dangerous if they eat some of it and it is cheap and easy to clean.

The bad thing about bran is that it shouldn't get wet then it will mould (spelling..?!). But apart from that I like it! I mist the shelves instead.
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>>Why can't they sell this stuff in Sweden too!
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>>I use bran. That is the best I have found here in Sweden. It is not dangerous if they eat some of it and it is cheap and easy to clean.
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>>The bad thing about bran is that it shouldn't get wet then it will mould (spelling..?!). But apart from that I like it! I mist the shelves instead.
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The paper is the same stuff the reptile company sent but much cheaper, thanks!

No Problem...I buy it by the roll and cut it. You can even buy the holders and cutters for the rolls at the site.

>>The paper is the same stuff the reptile company sent but much cheaper, thanks!
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

NP
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Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

you can order the paper cheaper at this website if you decide to go that way.

uline.com

>>Thank y'all for taking the time to answer. I noticed several people said 'shelf liner', is this the waffly plastic stuff? I think I will either go with this or with the high quality paper substrate being sold over on the classified forums for reptile cages, it comes precut or on rolls, they guy sent me a free sample and it looks pretty good but I like the idea of shelf liner also since I can get that from Walmart.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

My dragons were being treated for coccidia so I was using newspaper with paper towels on layered on top. The Vet said I should immediately remove droppings whiel treating them to reduce re-infection when they come into contact with the poop while moving around. Although they're now coccidia free I'm still using the same stuff. But after having been to at least 2 Reptile Stores that breed their own Dragons and noticing they use...PLAYSAND...I'm starting to reconsider.
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0.0.2 Bearded Dragons(Ziggy and Stardust)

It makes it brighter in the cage so Arwen shows her best color and it's easy to keep clean.

p.s. Don't mind the temp in the cage, I just put the top back on after having her out for a while.

Of lizard Ive tried newspaper, woodchips, sand, rocks, gravel, paper, etc. All have some things in common 1)you can tell when the animal defecates because theres no natural odor absorption and processing of liquids by naturally harmless bacteria, 2)females are limited to digging a nest where the nest box is instead of deciding where they want to lay their eggs because of temps, etc, 3)Gets dirty very fast from the animals waste products. Some other didadvantages, 1) except wood chips and sand the other surfaces are hard to live or walk on 24/7/365, exentually over a long time (may, could, or can) lead to problems lizards are not accustomed to in joints, bones, skin, etc from being on a hard surface. 1) all except the wood chips (cyprus) are dry, unaturally dry and cannot assist in preventing moisture loss in the animal which is detrimental to their health over the long road, animals kept in naturally dry surfaced, damp (underground) sub surface have an amount of moisture in the air and against their skin allowing their bodies to preserve moisture. The other option to those who use dry substrates is to offer constant clean water sources to drink, and soak the animals on a regualr basis to prvent dehydration. Dehydration over a long term can manifest itself in many forms as impactions (substrate, hair, etc), egg binding, low weight, improper digestion, cloacal eversion, kidney and liver failure, etc etc.
I switched to natual real digable, usable dirt with all lizards years ago. A simple observation since is that my animals havent had infections, etc beacause they have an immune system that works, they heal from injuries faster than you would ever believe, after all an immune system is what keeps them from getting sick in the wild under all kinds of hard conditions, with all kinds od internal and external parasites, injuries, etc.
These are my observations as well as many others, but feel free to try any substrate you want.

What kind of dirt do you use? Where do you get it from?
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0.0.2 Bearded Dragons(Ziggy and Stardust)

As I do with my monitors, then try to imitate it as close as I can, as well moisture etc. I set the dragons up a bit quicker for now until spring thaw allows bettert acess to dirt to mix with sand and I add some cocopeat to assist in moisture retention under a few inches, the result dry on the surface damp (not wet) underneath. Even in a desert if you get the chance to see a few in person there is soil mixed with the sand, as sand alone drains not holds moisture. Unfortunately my dragons are stuck in a mixture of some used potting soil (yuck) cocopeat and some sand, that will change soon as the organic based soil is giving me fungus problems with some eggs, its hard to clean off of them carefully. I try a few types of similar soils to see which works best for that animal, my fiancees female likes the cocopeat, for some reason she digs in and burys herself to sleep if I leave a pile in the cage more readily than other soils so far. Ya have to see which works for your animals.

"Over many years with several species of lizard"

Have they been many years with bearded dragons? That statement might be too general for the care of a specific species considering the vast diversity of environments different species may live in.

"1) except wood chips and sand the other surfaces are hard to live or walk on 24/7/365, exentually over a long time (may, could, or can) lead to problems lizards are not accustomed to in joints, bones, skin, etc from being on a hard surface"

I don't disagree with you here but would like to know if you have any evidence this has happened with bearded dragons? If so please give details.

"1) all except the wood chips (cyprus) are dry, unaturally dry and cannot assist in preventing moisture loss in the animal which is detrimental to their health over the long road, animals kept in naturally dry surfaced, damp (underground) sub surface have an amount of moisture in the air and against their skin allowing their bodies to preserve moisture."

Am I mistaken in believing a bearded dragon is not an animal who usually burrows? Am I mistaken that a bearded dragon lives in an arid environment and does not absorb moisture through it's skin? Are we talking about bearded dragons, monitors or just lizards in general regardless of it's natural habitat?

Oh yeah, almost forgot, you are saying soaking and providing a water source is ok with your statement below right? Just wanted to be sure.

"The other option to those who use dry substrates is to offer constant clean water sources to drink, and soak the animals on a regualr basis to prvent dehydration."

You go on to say:

"These are my observations as well as many others"

With regards to bearded dragons I have failed to find hardly any evidence backing up your statements. I have not searched regarding other lizards but with dragons I just can't find it. Please provide some evidence to back this claim up. Maybe a caresheet or two on the net? A book perhaps? Even a couple of good solid pieces evidence would help (I won't even try to discredit them either).

Again, none of this is an attack or an attempt to belittle your advice or opinions on this issue, it is only to make things clearer in the eyes of everyone who may read it. It is to give them some confidence in the choice they make, with regards to bearded dragons, to follow or not to follow your choice of substrate.
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Rob Talkington

climbing trees are a different story, they loves trees. More like iguanas than soil dwellers.

Also, take a group of hatchlings and give them the option of burrowing or climbing, they they all are going to climb, hang upright and sleep that way all night. It seems to be their natural instinct

Only as they get older do some start to tuck their nose in a corner or carve out a small depression to sleep in, but not burrowing.

Most bearded dragons live on very hard pack sand, like rock in the wild, except coastal dragons who have a more sandy surface, but do not choose to burrow, they again climb and are rarely on the ground.

Dragons that live near the rain corridors again also, choose trees to bask, sleep and spend most of their time in, except to mate or brumate, then they will dig out a low area near a tree or rock and snooze

ANOTHER NOTE: Since one of the worst forms of YFD is originating in soil/dirt in the US, that would be the last substate I would recommend, considering that form is deadly the majority of the time and bearded dragons seem more suscepible to it here that other reptiles. It has affected and been confirmed in chameleons, monitors and crocodiles, but by far more in bearded dragons. Dragons that are housed outside on soil have been hit particular hard. It is believed that birds may be the transfer vector for it.
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www.reptilerooms.com

"Have they been many years with bearded dragons? That statement might be too general for the care of a specific species considering the vast diversity of environments different species may live in. "

I stated many species because most lizards actually live in the same micro-habitats (similar conditions etc) but the example I give of monitors (most of my experience with one family of lizards some with beardies etc etc). In Australia there are beardies and many species of monitor found in the same micro habitats (predator/prey) so they have similar if not very very close requirements as far as basic care. Recently I was discussing monitor care compared to beardies with some who breed both as well beardies for many years, the statement was brought up that "Up til 5 years ago on the monitor forum here and a few other places the big arguements were keeping monitors in sterile cages, on paper, with nest boxes etc, but thats in the past as its been proven time and time again that they need something that instinct tells them is natural to live in". The same discussions here were there 5 or more years ago. I myself kept both on paper, wood chips, sand, etc etc, and had the same health problems I read about so many times among too many keepers dehydration etc, yet Ive never seen respiratory infections or impactions, or infections from normal injuries because I believe in allowing my animals to have a proper immune system.

"I don't disagree with you here but would like to know if you have any evidence this has happened with bearded dragons? If so please give details. "

Ive seen abcesses on monitor feet over the years when they were kept on hard surfaces, so have many zoos as well tail tips that start fragmenting from smacking against hard surfaces when jumping climbing down. Beardies I havent heard much on those problems but they are alot lighter in comparison to size etc but I noted the statement made somewhere before about beardies that sleep after they climb up on objects, Ive seen this with them kept on paper, but not on dirt. To climb a tree to sleep in an environment rich with varanids and birds of prey is suicide, the animals know that, so it tells me that they dont like the surface they are on because they cannot sleep well on it.

"Am I mistaken in believing a bearded dragon is not an animal who usually burrows? Am I mistaken that a bearded dragon lives in an arid environment and does not absorb moisture through it's skin? Are we talking about bearded dragons, monitors or just lizards in general regardless of it's natural habitat? "

I dont mean burrow in the sense of most monitors burrowing because they glide through dirt like a hot knife through butter but beardies can go under rocks, logs, in cracks, and yes dig down a few inches and sleep/ rest there to "preserve moisture" and to regulate temps safely as its very important in a semi-arid to arid environment, in fact its the way to survive in those places. Lizards in all environments preserve moisture in these ways because to drink excessively is to expose ones self to predators and open spaces which lizards dont like.

"Oh yeah, almost forgot, you are saying soaking and providing a water source is ok with your statement below right? Just wanted to be sure. "

I use the need to soak as a sign of an improper environment, but the chabce to do so on occaision if wanted to do so as being fine or to clean a dirty animal off as a dirty lizard is a happy lizard. Drinking water I offer to all of my lizards because they may need it when Im at work or when I may get stuck at work for extended periods (no warning to)without anyone checking on them all of the time.

"With regards to bearded dragons I have failed to find hardly any evidence backing up your statements. I have not searched regarding other lizards but with dragons I just can't find it. Please provide some evidence to back this claim up. Maybe a caresheet or two on the net? A book perhaps? Even a couple of good solid pieces evidence would help (I won't even try to discredit them either). "

I dont like many lizard care books but I check new monitor books out to see if they are worth reading at all as most authors of books on lizard care are just that authors of books to try and make money, not keepers or breeders of the animals they write about, although most will claim to be so it gives merit to their book. Care shhets are a very general idea to look at the start of whats needed before you get the animal not a set of instructions as to what the animal will need or want its whole life. It will be interesting to see in 5-10 years whats said about dragon care and whats better to use as it will be proven one way or another by many. This was shown over the years as I said earlier with monitors and some of those same people with beardies, and cosistant breeding long living animals that enjoy each others presence and pond to each other. Ive seen several instances of this, the pair I have now dig nests together protect their eggs together, eat together, sleep together, etc and so on and yes the male gets defensive when you mess with his chick. After all people are very solitary when compared to animals after all we hate each other enough to kill each other every day even knowing that we may die as punishment yet do you prefer to be alone 24/7 or be with someone 24/7, the choice was mine Id be social not go insane, and yes lizards do that to, see one that lives alone for years and years and see how it acts compared to one that has regualar contact with their species whether its male or female. Just stating common sense as its nature to be social to survive and procreate, unless you want to go extinct, thats one that has given up and gone insane.

Shawn Henderson

"I stated many species because most lizards actually live in the same micro-habitats (similar conditions etc) but the example I give of monitors (most of my experience with one family of lizards some with beardies etc etc). In Australia there are beardies and many species of monitor found in the same micro habitats (predator/prey) so they have similar if not very very close requirements as far as basic care."

I don’t see how you can say most lizards live in the same micro-habitats. If this were the case wouldn’t most lizards live with most lizards? I mean wouldn’t you find bearded dragons living well in North America if that were the case? I guess I think if that were the case you wouldn’t have any lizards that are only found in certain areas of the world. Do you think a water dragon would do well living in the same area as a horned lizard? Some lizards soak much moisture through their skin while others do not. Some lizards, if living in an environment with too much humidity, will develop respiratory problems simply because of the way their lungs work. The same kind of theory goes for all animals. I just don’t think you can make a statement about a species that generalized when some thrive in certain habitats while others do very poorly or just don’t survive at all.

"In Australia there are beardies and many species of monitor found in the same micro habitats (predator/prey) so they have similar if not very very close requirements as far as basic care."

I don’t disagree with part of that comment but if you find an abandoned monitor lizard burrow will you find beardies in it? They are different animals and that's just the way it is.

"Recently I was discussing monitor care compared to beardies with some who breed both as well beardies for many years, the statement was brought up that "Up til 5 years ago on the monitor forum here and a few other places the big arguements were keeping monitors in sterile cages, on paper, with nest boxes etc, but thats in the past as its been proven time and time again that they need something that instinct tells them is natural to live in". I myself kept both on paper, wood chips, sand, etc etc, and had the same health problems I read about so many times among too many keepers dehydration etc, yet Ive never seen respiratory infections or impactions, or infections from normal injuries because I believe in allowing my animals to have a proper immune system."

People who follow the current kind of advice most successful beardie keepers provide do not experience these kinds of illnesses either. The ill animals you hear about are of those who choose not to follow the current advice that is given. That is why these methods have been considered as proven to be successful.

"Beardies I havent heard much on those problems but they are alot lighter in comparison to size etc but I noted the statement made somewhere before about beardies that sleep after they climb up on objects, Ive seen this with them kept on paper, but not on dirt. To climb a tree to sleep in an environment rich with varanids and birds of prey is suicide, the animals know that, so it tells me that they dont like the surface they are on because they cannot sleep well on it."

So to stay out in the open where an animal bask would be a safer place to sleep, when most senses are degraded or shut down due to sleep/temperature? Plus, would there not be dirt at the base of a tree?

"I dont mean burrow in the sense of most monitors burrowing because they glide through dirt like a hot knife through butter but beardies can go under rocks, logs, in cracks, and yes dig down a few inches and sleep/ rest there to "preserve moisture" and to regulate temps safely as its very important in a semi-arid to arid environment, in fact its the way to survive in those places. Lizards in all environments preserve moisture in these ways because to drink excessively is to expose ones self to predators and open spaces which lizards dont like."

A lot of lizards preserve moisture by their skin not allowing it to escape. For an animal who has this type of skin that does not allow moisture to penetrate, being in a moist environment to preserve moisture is pointless

"I use the need to soak as a sign of an improper environment, but the chabce to do so on occaision if wanted to do so as being fine or to clean a dirty animal off as a dirty lizard is a happy lizard."

Beardies will frequently make efforts to get away from their waste or uneaten food, maybe even bury it. I believe they prefer to be clean and that is why they are bathed. In addition, I also believe they absorb moisture through their vent if given the opportunity.

"Care shhets are a very general idea to look at the start of whats needed before you get the animal not a set of instructions as to what the animal will need or want its whole life. It will be interesting to see in 5-10 years whats said about dragon care and whats better to use as it will be proven one way or another by many."

Care sheets are indeed intended to provide the necessary care for an animal it’s whole life. Most of the authors of caresheets do not have the intentions of giving only a basic start and have tons of inexperienced people experiment with their care. The experimentation should be done by those who are experienced with animals and are able to recognize the signs of trouble.

"This was shown over the years as I said earlier with monitors and some of those same people with beardies, and cosistant breeding long living animals that enjoy each others presence and pond to each other. Ive seen several instances of this, the pair I have now dig nests together protect their eggs together, eat together, sleep together, etc and so on and yes the male gets defensive when you mess with his chick. After all people are very solitary when compared to animals after all we hate each other enough to kill each other every day even knowing that we may die as punishment yet do you prefer to be alone 24/7 or be with someone 24/7, the choice was mine Id be social not go insane, and yes lizards do that to, see one that lives alone for years and years and see how it acts compared to one that has regualar contact with their species whether its male or female.Just stating common sense as its nature to be social to survive and procreate, unless you want to go extinct, thats one that has given up and gone insane."

Honestly I used to think the same way you do. I used to not understand how an animal could possibly be happy without any company. Since then I have learned that there are many, many animals that prefer to be solitary, except during the small amount of time they breed, which is their main goal of living, to continue their species. Take many, many snakes for instance. You will very rarely find two snakes of the same species living close to each other. If you happen to find two near each other they are either fighting or breeding, which is only a small time out of the year. Or, if they are different species most likely one is planning on eating the other. How many animals have their young and once they are born are completely out on their own? Humans can't do that. Male bears will sometimes kill the offspring of a female to get her ready to breed quicker. People don’t do that kind of thing! It's not necessary for a female to be "in heat" for her copulate. We are waaaaaay different than animals!

To take general human emotion and behavior and apply it to any part of the husbandry of an animal can cause major problems for that animal. I’m not saying it doesn’t sometimes occur because I do believe there are similarities in some cases, but it cannot be a general guideline, especially when behaviors of these animals have clearly indicated differently.
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Rob Talkington

When taking advice from others you have to make your own final decision as to what advice to take. There are many different things that work for many different people. BUT there is usually a method that has been proven to be succesful by the majority of experienced keepers and has been agreed upon to be the safest thing to do for your animals.

You can go the experimental route that has worked for a few but be certain you are willing to take the higher risk of complications and will probably have fewer resources for help when these complications arise.

Or can go the with the methods proven by a greater number of experienced keepers to be safe and if you have complications there will most likely be more resources you can rely on for help.

Again, it is your decision and if you do choose to go the experimental route it would be appreciated if you share any complications or successes you have so we can gain a better understanding if these experimental methods are a good choice or not.

IMPORTANT:

If you are new to reptiles I strongly suggest you do not experiment because you will probably not be able to recognize the subtle signs of complications. In addition, you will also have fewer resources available if you do have complications. I would strongly consider leaving the experimentation up to the experts.
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Rob Talkington

I think that pretty much says what a lot of us feel.

I also want to say, bearded dragons are not monitors, not even close, totally different skin/scales, mositure absorbtion are very different, dragons absord little moisture through their skin/scale, but do some through their vent, a good indicator they are not intended to burrow, but from surface areas.

Also about the tree comment, they are not in trees to escape hard ground...... put a dragon on any surface or let them roam free and they go up...... as high as they can get, they naturally want to be up higher and looking down (maybe at all the snakes on the ground)
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www.reptilerooms.com

Rob,
Let me just say that I don't keep my dragons on a dirt based substrate, but I wanted to adress a statement you made in your post.

"A lot of lizards preserve moisture by their skin not allowing it to escape.
For an animal who has this type of skin that does not allow moisture to
penetrate, being in a moist environment to preserve moisture is pointless."

Being is a humid burrow for such a creature is not pointless. I don't think Sean meant that they absord moisture or that he actually said it. When he speaks of preserving moisture, I think he means losing less rather than taking in moisture somehow from the soil through it's skin. Everytime a lizard breaths out it is loosing moisture from it's body. If you are in a humid hiding spot or burrow, it would follow that you are losing less. Does that make sense?

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

Thanks for clarifying, that makes more sense if it is talking about respiration.

I still think soil at this time is risky for bearded dragons(other lizard species too). There are still studies going on to detect were some of the fatal fungal problems are coming from that bearded dragons are experiencing. One source seems to be pointing to store bought top soil/potting soils(substrate and laying boxes) and to dragons that were raised outside on soil prior to being sold. It is known that particular fungus, Chrysosporium anamorph of Nannizziopsis vriesii, is found in soil and bird dropping are thought to be a possible source of that.

This fungus is increasing in bearded dragons in the US, also in monitors and chameleons. Its been found too in crocidiles.

I just feel until more is known about it, using home soil, or store bought soil is risky. Soil is exposed to bird droppings about anywhere is it commerical gathered (mined?... I don't know the word).

Several female dragons have showed up with it shortly after laying eggs, and the really scary thing is that some of the babies that hatched from those mothers, showed up with it 2-4 months later, although they never had any contact with the parent, or on soil themselves. The theory...and its only a theory, is that the eggs themselves on the outside carried the fungus from the soil they were laid in or incubated in, the incubator kept it alive either on the eggs or the soil they were in and the babies were exposed to it when they hatched climbing over the shells or soil.
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www.reptilerooms.com

"I don’t see how you can say most lizards live in the same micro-habitats. If this were the case wouldn’t most lizards live with most lizards?"

Similar to the same microhabitats, they live and thrive in very similar to the same conditions, most do if you actually look at the microhabitats they live in not just the overall climate etc of their home country.

"I mean wouldn’t you find bearded dragons living well in North America if that were the case? I guess I think if that were the case you wouldn’t have any lizards that are only found in certain areas of the world."

Millions of years of evolution to animals that are found in small populations separated by geographical barriers cause many differences to create different species yet the case of most species of lizard, not a handful of examples but most are found in the same or similar conditions ie. humidity, temps, etc. If you go to Africa, Asia, Australia, N.America, S. America the majority of lizard species will be found living in semi arid conditions near small permanent bodies of water, usually living in around or under rock piles in burrows under logs trees with very similar behaviors including living in groups (they may be separated by space but in the same territories etc. What Im saying is there are examples of animals adapted to live near and some of their lives are spent in water or in trees etc but most lizards are adapted to living in very dry warm environments. As for preserving moisture monitors are among the best at this of any animal period but are still suceptible to dehydration from these environments, check "King and Greens Biology of Varanid Lizards" with the comparison of a few desert species of lizard to a few monitor species and their efficency to prevent moisture loss including differences from hatchling to adult.

"Some lizards, if living in an environment with too much humidity, will develop respiratory problems simply because of the way their lungs work."

Untrue, they develop respiratory infections from the lack of an immune system from high constant stress improper husbandry and that the inability to thermoregulate when needed, not when they are told to. So many keepers complain of health problems from basic husbandry issues but do not understand that a lizards basic biology or what a lizard is not a common name, not a latin name but an animal that is adapted to live in a certain set of conditions. A repiratory infection is pnemonia, which comes from the same a lack of immune system, a secondary infection always.

"I don’t disagree with part of that comment but if you find an abandoned monitor lizard burrow will you find beardies in it? They are different animals and that's just the way it is."

No, but if you find an abandoned rock crevice or burrow once occupied by a snake or a beardie as well a tree bow, you might find a monitor now living there.

" The same kind of theory goes for all animals. I just don’t think you can make a statement about a species that generalized when some thrive in certain habitats while others do very poorly or just don’t survive at all. "

Simple they live in the same habitats, in the same conditions so why would one thrive in that same condition when both are adapted to do so? Think about it...

"So to stay out in the open where an animal bask would be a safer place to sleep, when most senses are degraded or shut down due to sleep/temperature? Plus, would there not be dirt at the base of a tree? "

No, you didnt read or comprehend what I typed, to sleep in an open area exposed to predators is something a healthy animal doesnt do period, if they do then they are not near as healthy as they appear to be, they have probably given up. They would more likely be hidden while sleeping or shortly dead from a hungry predator.

"Care sheets are indeed intended to provide the necessary care for an animal it’s whole life. Most of the authors of caresheets do not have the intentions of giving only a basic start and have tons of inexperienced people experiment with their care. The experimentation should be done by those who are experienced with animals and are able to recognize the signs of trouble. "

Most caresheets are written by someone who knows ZILCH about the animal they are writing a sheet for. Read enough and youll know if you know anything about the animals the sheets are written about. They cover basic set up, basic beginner care ideas, and how to adapt the animal to the authors preferences not how to properly care for the animal. There are a few decent or good care shhets available on different reptiles but most are not worth reading at all.

"To take general human emotion and behavior and apply it to any part of the husbandry of an animal can cause major problems for that animal. I’m not saying it doesn’t sometimes occur because I do believe there are similarities in some cases, but it cannot be a general guideline, especially when behaviors of these animals have clearly indicated differently."

You have to understand the animal and its body language not try to tell the animal its not capable of emotions, or caring for another or any basic natural reaction to events, just because man assigns himself as the only animal capable of feelings, thought or emotion, thats purely a way of religion or other influences saying we are the top the only thing that matters because we are humans made in the shadow of god. Emotions belonged to many species many many millions of years before us and after we will be gone.

"Honestly I used to think the same way you do. I used to not understand how an animal could possibly be happy without any company. Since then I have learned that there are many, many animals that prefer to be solitary, except during the small amount of time they breed, which is their main goal of living, to continue their species. Take many, many snakes for instance. You will very rarely find two snakes of the same species living close to each other. If you happen to find two near each other they are either fighting or breeding, which is only a small time out of the year. Or, if they are different species most likely one is planning on eating the other. How many animals have their young and once they are born are completely out on their own? Humans can't do that. Male bears will sometimes kill the offspring of a female to get her ready to breed quicker. People don’t do that kind of thing! It's not necessary for a female to be "in heat" for her copulate. We are waaaaaay different than animals!

This arguement was brought up for discussion recently on multiple web sites but then why are so many pairs of snakes found living together all year around, why are so many lizards found the same etc etc etc. A solitary animal is an animal that lives alone most of its life, ie a bear (male), but solitary is something lizards are not, if you kept any lizards in pairs then solitary and compared them you would see what I mean, and yes after a period of time a solitary lizard goes insane. If you keep lizards solitary from birth to death except during breeding season they dont know how to communicate, they dont speak the same language, and they may hate each other but if they get along then keep them together, thats called a pair, a bond considering they do social things like communicate, fight, etc etc.

I dont know how to get this across to you any better but to check out pictures that Frank Retes posts from the desert or his yard in Arizona, most live in groups, all of their lives.

about bearded dragons, not monitors? 3/4ths of your statements are about monitors, VERY different animals and there is a forum for them.

Most us that have been reading these lately, understand that your experience and methods are with them, and that there is a world of difference in their care and husbandry, but new people coming on may mistake that information, which the above statements indicate you are not talking about.

We gladly welcome your information on bearded dragons or things that apply to them as a separate species from monitors.

I raise iguanas too, and have some big healthy ones, but do not compare their husbandry, which is a lot closer to a bearded dragon than a monitor.

Again, not meaning to be rude, but this is the bearded dragon forum.
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www.reptilerooms.com

But if you actually raised all of them youd know that. I compared ground dwelling lizards that live side by side in the same habitats and similar microhabitats.
I guess my experience with beardies doesnt count, Ive only had 13. Im trying to get it through to a few people that 2 lizards that live in the same country, in the same local areas, both on the ground, in the same climates, in the same habitats, etc etc etc should obviously be kept very similar to each other.

exentually over a long time (may, could, or can) lead to problems lizards are not accustomed to in joints, bones, skin, etc from being on a hard surface.

Rather interesting statement since the most common ground they orignate from is hard packed soil/sand... but then, also, given the choice, they do love asphalt a lot, thats why so many end up smooshed on the roadway in Australia. Maybe like kids, they just don't know what is good for them given choices?

Shame they don't know even if there were no cars, it may, could, or can affect their joints, bones, skin

BTW: anyone that cares to know, this is from someone in Australia that observes them in their natural enviroment, also has identified a few of the pogona species and named them.

Favorite basking area: asphalt or top of a fence post

Favorite cooler time resting area: under a rock on hard packed sand

Favorite insects: beetles

Favorite Sleeping: up a tree trunk, not the limbs, but hanging on the tree

Favorite laying area: mulch area around tree bases if available or under rocks if no trees, especially were there are corners
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www.reptilerooms.com

"Rather interesting statement since the most common ground they orignate from is hard packed soil/sand... but then, also, given the choice, they do love asphalt a lot, thats why so many end up smooshed on the roadway in Australia. Maybe like kids, they just don't know what is good for them given choices?"

Like any animal species that is found anywhere near any roads, they are not afraid them, maybe some day natural selection will kill off all animals that flock to roads, I think that will take thousands of years, and our roads are multiplying so fast. So like any animal that seeks a place to warm up the asphalt is a gathering spot an easy convenient basking spot thats huge, and was built to usually be above flood levels in many areas, why not hang out on them. Comparing them to kids is a bad comparison after all kids do some really stupid things; drink poison, take dangerous drugs, drive cars illegaly while thinking nothings wrong with it, take guns to school, etc etc etc and many many other things. Yes hard packe soil and sand, just like many or most monitors are found in worldwide, but niether is asphalt concrete or any other hard surface such as a wooden cage bottom or melamine, etc. They like soil and sand yes they would rather be on it than asphalt 24/7, just look at any animal that lives on hard surfaces all of their life and health problems they face. Asphalt was made for cars and trucks not to be walked on all of the time.

"Shame they don't know even if there were no cars, it may, could, or can affect their joints, bones, skin"

Its a shame they dont avoid cars, but natual selection hasnt taught them yet to fear cars. And again look at any species that is stuck living on or travels asphalt/ concrete roads on foot alot, see what problems they have.

"Favorite basking area: asphalt or top of a fence post"

Sounds like almost every reptile that lives near people.

"Favorite cooler time resting area: under a rock on hard packed sand "

Exactly, but they dont spend their whole life living on that hard rock 24/7.

"Favorite Sleeping: up a tree trunk, not the limbs, but hanging on the tree"

Makes for an easier escape when your not an arboreal species, to get out of a tree quickly to be on the stem not the branches. These things again allow you to be above the ground surface, a basking spot when the sun rises, a vantage point to see easier, and its safer to at least somewhat match your background. Insect also love trees.

"Favorite laying area: mulch area around tree bases if available or under rocks if no trees, especially were there are corners"

Also sandy dirt around stream, creek, and river banks is an excellent substrate to lay eggs in as well burrow in becuse it holds moisture very well and holds a structure to it, many prefer to lay there like the choice by many reptiles to use that type of surface. Mulch is aslo used because of it natural tendancy to produce heat and hold moisture. Many retiles use mulch as a nest.

i use alfalfa pellets for my dragons. i have read opposing views online about them, but i like them a lot. i like them because they are absorbant and easy to clean, they are digestable if accidently ingested, and they are super inexpensive. you can get a huge 50lb bag at a blue seal retailer for around 10 bucks. and they look nice, too. not as nice as sand, but a lot nicer than newspaper.

i think the reason many people don't recommend it is because it absorbs water easily and will break down and mold. i don't have that problem because i don't spray my dragons...instead to keep them hydrated i give them frequent baths and make sure their greens and pellets are moistened. this technique also keeps those pesky water stains off the sides of my cage.

i went from paper towels to sand to craft paper to alfalfa pellets, and i like the alfalfa the best. i have an enormous homemade cage (equivalent to 180 gal) that is difficult to get into and clean--and with craft paper it was nearly impossible to keep clean--having to take out all the cage furniture and pick up the paper and then try to cut a length of paper to fit and then getting it in there and so on an d so forth. now i can just scoop the poop!

and of course, paper towels for babies!

amanda

Hi
i use already more then 4 years sand .
its not a normal kind of playsand its made special for animals .
its heated and its cocodiose free.
i wil make one time a picture of the bag and post it.
its rivier sand with a rounded grain and i can sifer it once a while if it get to messy.
also in there r tiny shells they use this sand also for pigneons over here .
over here is the netherlands.
3,4 times a year i change the sand .
after i useing parazap i not have problems with parasites.
i even put my babies on that type of sand right away and have no proboems with impaction.
last time i got 120 babies hatched and all where alive after 2 months.
i do how ever use a flagstone where i put my greens dish on .
and if i mist them then i wil mist them when they on the flagstone and not in the sand.
so for me its very good(but remeber this is special made for animals and not for making cement r walls)
byeeeeeeee

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