Reptile & Amphibian Forums

when will the hypo/salmon/sunglow/dominant this/dominant that/ DH for this/DH for that hype end? Don't get me wrong, I love my boas, I've got plenty. "Normal" BCI and BCC. What is the end result that breeders are trying to achieve? Sort of like the ball thing. Balls went from a cheap import pet store snake that wouldn't eat to some of the most expensive animals out there. I get a headache trying to keep up with the morphs and the genetics. I guess since I don't do this for a living it's just not that exciting to me. I only wish I had $50,000 snakes to sell. Anyway, not downing anyone or trying to start a pi**ing contest, just my thoughts.

They're trying to make pretty snakes. Pretty is always a personal opinion. You can like your normals and not have to worry about the morphs if you don't want to.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

I think they want to make pretty snakes but with the end results being more about the money, just my oppinion but look at the ball pythons. new morphs are coming out soo quick that unless your have lots of cash you simply can't keep up and those that do keep up are doing it for the money first and the love of snakes second. and to prove this, who would buy a spider ball and just buy ONE and keep it for a pet, no one here.

I love the look of morphs more than anyone, but I still feel that these animals should have a good life and not be bred using the more factory type methods, you know who you are.

This is not aimed at anyone personally, just some thoughts from snake and animal lover.

steve

Well, some people are probably thinking... I want this as a pet, but if I'm spending $$$ on it I might as well make some back on it. Everyone will have different motives, of course, some people got into breeding purely for the money.
If I got a spider ball (which is actually one of my favorites), I would actually not breed it. I'm not rich though, so I won't have one in the near future!. I am sitting on a few snakes now that I could pair up and breed and make a small but decent amount of money on, but I for one can't just sit there and breed anything I'm not passionate about. Not that I don't have enough of those.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Yeah, im the same way, I would like to make some money too so I could get the other morphs etc that I like, its just the speed of these things like the BALLS that I think have gotten out of control, I can see these ball morphs being alot cheaper some day but at the same time there will be some neon scarlet blue ones to take their places lol with a hefty proce tag.

soo many snakes and soo little time

steve

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trying to make money doing what you love? as long as you're not compromising the well being of the animals...i mean if you make enough money breeding snakes that a day job isn't nessassary...doesn't that free up more time to breed snakes?

chris

Don't worry, you're not alone with the whole BP thing. I posted a similar comment in the BP this time last year about the justification of overly high prices for BP morphs and people blasted me for it. I think the last issue of Reptiles magazine did an ok job of explaining it.

I agree with you about the morph craze. I've been keeping snakes for a long time and I'm open to the idea of adding new species or projects to my collection. I do not agree with the large number of people selling normal BP's as some potential new morph or pattern, when in reality its just a slight variation of a normal BP. Not to mention the name game with all the real morphs. It is very frustrating to see. I'm newer to keeping some boa species and am not too familiar with the morph situation within boas. I am still into the natural look of many of these boa subspecies, which appear to be cheaper unless they're uncommon.

In my opinion, boas are a great alternative to the overly priced BP market which will surely drop in the near future (again, just my opinion). Plus, boa morph breeders seem more established than the bp breeders, as far as ability to trust in heterozygous traits. I'm not sure that all BP fanatics fully understand the genetics behind their new morphs, and since most are chasing after money faster than they're willing to learn, few are willing to prove out new morphs before selling them. Unfortunately, the end result, I fear, will be an increased liklihood of genetic disorders in BPs and further removal from their wild heritage due to mass inbreeding.

I'd imagine that the boa market may have already experienced this with some species years ago and most are moving to keep various bloodlines pure. I'm starting to find that when compared to BPs, boas the way to go.
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www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

I wish I could make big bucks doing something I love. Another example, over the years I've seen some "normal" colored colubrids almost disappear because something "new and improved" came along (like Hondurans). I would hate to see this happen with boas. I'm waiting for the BCC morphs to come along and start the trend over. Those "killer" surinames a lot of us have won't be so "killer" anymore.

Hopefully some people share thoughts and PREFER the natural wild type look of ALL species of reptiles. Not to preach or anything but most species evolved over millions of years into their modern day phenotypes for some reason (likely for survival). Who are we to argue with that and change it in a matter of a few breeding cycles. I'm not a purist by any means b/c some of these morphs are really, really beautiful and I wouldn't mind owning a few BUT I would certainly prefer 'normals' of almost any species. justmy2cents -jason
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www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

i PREFER natural specimens also...but who is the guy that gets to draw the line and say "this much is okay, but this much is too much?

chris

The morph breeders breeding for color and pattern and/or more is just like the locality breeders breeding for dominant features and specific saddles and particular tail color and contrast and so on...

Some like and breed for peaks, some don't, there are red tails, orange tails, maroon tails, laddertails, striped tails.... silver bodies, tan bodies, pink bodies, purple bodies... there are inky black saddles, faded brown saddles, purple or red saddles.... some like them thin, some like them thick, some like the floating and some like the connected...

see what I mean? when you take all these characteristics, and multiply them together, you get much more possibilities than the morphers do, because they can all be seen and realized now, not in 10 or twenty years from now..

NOW IMAGINE THIS.... imagine if you loved peaks, laddertails, normal classic tails, purple saddles, black peaked saddles, high contrast, and faded, washed out look.. imagine if you loved ALL THOSE characteristics and COULD POSSIBLY MAKE THEM ALL FROM ONE OR TWO PAIRS, instead of dozens of pairs for each characteristic.?.!.?.!.?.!

wouldn't that be more fun, more exciting, more rewarding ???

that's why the morphers do it (money aside)

just my $.02

take care - Joe Rollo - BciJoe
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Well said Joe,I agree!!!!!!!!Its all in the eye of the beholder.I use to be into BCC's strictly until I started to see the different morph's of Boas,Now I am hooked.Thanks to Bill Park's!!!!!!!

.
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Whether it's local or morphs................NO ONE BREEDS TO REPOPULATE THE WILD. Local breeder. as joe said, example use a 0.1 with a beautiful red tail, breed it to a 1.0 with a red tail to get babies with killer red tails or better color or stripes.................ect

Morphers do basically the same. Most all morphs are bci,just different colors. I breed for two reasons. 1) the love for boas 2) to create better looking morphs ............. don't get me wrong, a lil' extra cash is nice, BUT the chances of making a living @ it is slim to none

Bottom line. These are "designer boas" or "designer balls" They are for people to buy and keep, not for release in the wild.As I stated above........."NO ONE ,ABSOLUYLY< NO ONE breeds boids to introduce in the wild.

I have cross breed boas............doesn't matter. Their not going back into the wild. Their breed for their beauty & for people who love em & take care of them

This is ONLY my opinion,other people have differnt opinions & dislike morphs & crosses. BOTTOM LINE............ALL of us love boas,,,,, so we do ALL have something in common,whether its a BCC,BCI,BCI x BCI,albino or surinam....................their all boas.Here's a pic of a true hog isle which are breed into morphs and breed together to reduce speckeling or to get better color
Just my thoughts,
My opinion only,
Not looking for an argument

Dave @ East TN Reptiles

sometimes i'm torn on the crossing but then i look at my argentine male and one best bci females and think..."god they would make awesome babies!!!"

chris

TO SEE PEOPLE THAT CAN SEE BEYOND THE END OF THEIR NOSE. I AGREE WITH THE FACT THAT WE ALL LOVE BOAS AND I PERSONALLY COULD CARE LESS WHAT YOU CALL IT OR WHAT YOU DID TO PRODUCE IT. I PREFER TO WORK WITH MOSTLY LOCALITY ANIMALS THESE DAYS. THE COLOMBIAN VARIATIONS ARE NICE AND I WILL ALWAYS HAVE A FEW OF THEM AS WELL. THEY WERE MY FIRST LOVE AND WHO KNOWS, WITH THE HELP OF MR. R, MAYBE ONE DAY I WILL BE SMART ENOUGH TO BRANCH OUT INTO THE MORPH WORLD. I AM PROUD TO BE FRIENDS WITH GUYS LIKE JOE AND DAVE. HEY DAVE, I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, "YOUR HYPO/HOGGS WERE THE BEST HYPOS I'VE SEEN YET!"

People will always like what they like. The morphs have their place just as the normals do. They are beautiful animals, unique in color and/or pattern. I don't like all the morphs, but it's hardly like the morphs will ever completely replace normals. There are tons of people such as yourself (or me) who love what nature created best. Even for those individuals breeding normals, they also select the most attractive examples of a given species of animal to breed to each other. While I will agree that some people get into morphs for the money they can potentially make, most of them do it initially because they love the boas and are attracted to that specific phase animal. Kathy Love wrote in her Corn Manual (paraphrased here now, not exact) that the abberhations of color and pattern in corns intrigue keepers and bring out the latent artist in us. That's true of any of the species we keep where color and pattern morphs are found - be it snakes or lizards. It's a search for animals that appeal to our visual tastes.

As for the ball pythons, there are still thousands of both captive and wild caught/farmed normal hatchlings available for pets. It isn't as if normals are no longer available or priced beyond the reach of the average keeper. Yes, the ball morphs are very expensive - a combination of rarity (in regards to a specific morph) as well as small clutches (meaning the latest morphs can't be mass produced from the few founding animals). I don't blame the breeders just because I can't afford what they're breeding. Is it wrong for people to breed what appeals to them? No. That doesn't mean you (or anyone else) has to like a given morph, just that those of us who do have the same right to enjoy them. How many of us who breed our pets wouldn't be thrilled to look down and find a genetic anomoly in our litter? Are they really any less beautiful than normal siblings? It's all a matter of perspective. And I dare say most of us in this hobby spend far more on our animals than anything we ever make from the sale of offspring. Yes, there are people who make a living at it, but they're more of an exception than a rule and I don't begrudge them making a profit doing what they love.

Raven

heres a sibling (im pretty sure anyways)

personally... i think morphs are rad... though i have no intention of investing in them, i take em for what they are, pretty snakes. though, IMO, a really clean colorfull classic 'normal' suri, blows away a striped-sunglow-motley-blockback-cungle/jungle anyday

it really isnt all that hard to keep up with whats what. you just have to be wary of certain unscrupulous breeders about that will call a honda a bmw.
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recycle your pets

qoute, unqoute!

I think you answer your own question!

I wonder how many "ugly" snakes end up in a freezer until the desireable "look" comes out. Don't be scared to speak your mind on this forum, that's what some of us are here for. Some people might even appreciate some honesty. If they don't-@#$% 'em!

Not too long ago I saw some one selling hundreds of frozen baby ball pythons for cobra food. How odd that so many baby balls just happened to die!!?? Maybe you're onto something.

Let's see, 20 or so to a healthy clutch, maybe 5 (if you're fortunate) "lookers". You have 15 normal looking, or het for this, or het for that. If you are an intelligent business person obviously you are going to have several or more breeding pairs. Been to a pet store lately, or looked at your local classified section of the newspaper? Don't even get me started on Burms or Retics, and don't compare with dogs/cats.