Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a male/female pair of yearling corns that I purchased from Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles (awesome animals from an awesome dealer) and I had an unexpected surprise tonight.

I have been keeping the two in the same 30 gal. long tank for the past two or three months that I've had them with no complications at all. I didn't brumate the snakes seeing as how I wasn't planning on breeding them, and they've been eating like pigs. The two are up to just a lil over 2 feet a piece and doing great.

Well, I heard a strange sound coming from the cage just after their weekly misting. I took a small flashlight and peeked in, not wanting to turn the main light back on and disturb the snakes. Well, to my astonishment, the male ghost and the female were mating. I hadn't really counted on that happening until next year, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I am a bit concerned about the relative youth of the female, however. She has been doing great, and gaining weight and length very well for the past months, but she's still very young. I was wondering if any of you experienced breeders out there had any opinions on this? Is there anything I can do (other than keeping her well fed and warm) to help her out with bearing the eggs to term? I wish I had known that they'd breed like this even without brumation.... I'd have kept them seperate until next year. Oh well.

Any info or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys, and I'm lookin forward to hatching out some lil beauties.

David

You knowingly keep 2, 1.1 underage corns together?If i were you i would seperate them fast and pray she isnt fertilized.You just set your female up for some possible serious health problems.I see you didnt do any research on your corns.If you think my post is harsh you should have read the first 3 I deleted.By the way look up the term egg bound....Paul.

Okay, so they bred. There are some things you need to do immediately.

1. Separate them. If she isn't fertilized, and you better hope she isn't, then she WILL BECOME fertilized if you leave her in there.

2. Make certain she has good heat in her new cage. Make sure she is well fed, but don't stuff her face.

3. Keep a close eye on her. If she starts to appear gravid you might do some research on the nearest herp vet. I would say the odds are about 50-50 (or worse, but hey, I'm no expert) that you will lose both the female AND the entire clutch if she is gravid. If you are lucky, you might just lose the clutch.

4. Learn from your mistake. It's easy for people to slam someone else for a mistake they've never made, but most people DO make mistakes. I've made plenty of them. The important thing is to learn from what has happened.

5. Share with the people in this forum what happens with your snake. There will be inevitable flames from those who are certain they are perfect. In many cases these people are only thinking of the animal and feeling that a life-threatening situation should not have been thrust on the animal in this manner. But I am guessing that if you share your experiences, give updates, even if it means telling us all that you lost the female, you will be doing a great service to someone else who doesn't realize that corn snakes WILL BREED given the chance. They are like bunnies. And they don't know they're too small to breed. (reminds me of some of my high school freshmen)
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~Sasheena

It has nothing to do with people thinking there perfect.I have fugged up enough to write a whole book on what not to do to a reptile.My first 4 years i wrote the book on how to breed mites and ticks,picking the sickest looking snakes with the worst attitudes and feeding habits.His post shot my blood pressure through the roof.There are so many books,websites,etc that would have told him what he was doing was wrong.He could have even came here and asked us.Yes he screwed up bigtime.I hope he doesnt loose his female,and i do hope he keeps us posted.And yes doing research is one of the best preventatives there is...Paul.

First off, I did do research. Read the Corn Snake Manual by Bill and Kathy Love.... Read about twenty websites on Corn snake care, and talked to several people in my area including a long time breeder who supplies the pet stores in my area with their neonates before I purchased the corns. I was pretty much told that as long as I didn't brumate the snakes, then the chances of them mating were very low, seeing as how without brumation, the female would most likely not even go into ovulation. Didn't read anywhere about the possibility of snakes mating without brumation.

Second, if I thought for a second that there was a chance of this happening before the snakes were in breeding condition, do you think for a second I'd have put them together? I'm not an idiot, afterall, and knowingly putting the female at risk would be pretty much throwing away the 100 bucks I spent on her and college kids ain't quite rich enough to do that.

And third, I'm glad to hear you screw up sometimes too. From your first post, I was worried that I had inadvertenly pissed off the herp hobby God.

For all of the helpful advice that's been posted, thanks. And I have seperated the snakes as of last night when I first saw them breeding. Didn't think it'd be a good idea to keep her in there anymore.

And for all of the people thinking to flame me for this, let me save you the trouble. I've been beating myself up over all night. Whatever you have to say to me wouldn't matter a bit, so keep it to yourself. I'm looking for help, not criticism. For all the would be critics out there, hopefully you'll think back to before you became Herp Hobby Gods that are perfect and remember that everyone makes mistakes. If not, then I think a healthy 'up yours' is in order.

David.

I don't think that is called for especially since you were seeking help. This is a public forum and wihtout using profanity or inappropriate comments, most people are welcome to share their opinions on any issue. If someone else reads this and realizes how big of a reaction it stirred up with some of the more experienced hobbyists, then it may alarm some newer folks to this hobby & prevent others from making the same mistakes as you.

With that being said, most N.American colubrids do not need to brumate to reproduce. In fact, some breeders have just as good success rates at breedings without brumation compared with using a cool down period. There are exceptions, such as Eastern Indigos which apparantly remain a mystery for most breeders.

Keep your chin up and hope for the best. If anyone sounds overly upset its because THEY CARE! No need to backlash, it might just deter someone from providing you with additional quality advice.
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www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes

It simply goes back to what we tell people every other day on this forum.
There are only reasons NOT to keep snakes together. Including mating too early.
There are NO reasons to keep them together.
We go into detail all the time about why not to do it.
It has nothing to do with being perfect. It has to do with what is best for the snakes.
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Remember, My posts are MY opinion only!
Jimmy (draybar)

Like has been said, separating them now with the hope that she isn't fertilized is a good plan.

I'm not going to jump all over you. You now know, and rubbing your face into the whole matter will get us nowhere. People make mistakes, God knows I have. Kudos to you for coming in here, admitting the mistake with all the details, and asking for help.

What I would do if I found myself in this situation:

Separate the female, feed her well, keep her warm so she can digest optimally and put on as much size as she can. One other thing I'd add: exercise her. Get those muscles toned up, because she's going to need them if she needs to push out a clutch of eggs. Put her in a cage with lots of climbing toys, get her out and have her crawl over your hands for a half hour, tone her up. It'll lower your chances of egg binding, plus keep her from getting obese from the feedings in the meantime.

Good luck, I hope it all works out for you.

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~~~Hurley

I just wanted to say that I hope everything works out for you. I know what it is like to make a mistake, so there will be no harsh comments from me. Good luck with the female and keep us updated.
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annjaret

"When I die, I want to come back as one of my animals."

Im not going to beat up on you, that horse is already dead!!
I would just like to say I hope your snake isnt fertilized and everything works out.

Now for you nay sayers that put forth the advice "Its ok to house 2 snakes together with no ill effects.", I hope this is a lesson for you all.

It cant be stressed enough that snakes are a solitary animal, and only come together for 2 reasons:
1. Mating
2. Hibernation

It isnt ok to house them together. Period. Your bad advice may well have caused this guy to lose a snake.

Again, I hope your snake makes it ok, and good luck!

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1.0 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake (KY locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Yellow rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.1 California king snake (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake (KY locale)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I don't think the female is fertilized. Actually, I don't even think she was ovulating. I have done the finger test several times and haven't felt any lumps in her midsection, so I'm hoping that means she didn't have any eggs ready. Definitely learned my lesson about keeping them together, though. Seperate housing from now on until some time either late this year or next year when I'm actually ready for them to breed.

Thanks for all the posts, and I'll keep you guys posted. Never hurts to have an extra pair of fingers crossed.

David

Don't be too optimistic about her not being fertilized yet. Females have the ability to hold sperm until the time they ovulate, so you still may need to prepare for eggs, etc. anyway.

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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 2001 Hypo snow cornsnake
0.1 2002 Pastel Ghost cornsnake
1.1 2002 Bloodred cornsnakes
0.1 1998 Het Hypo, Het Caramel cornsnake
1.0 2000 Hypo Het Caramel cornsnake

A good rule of thumb is to wait till there 4 to breed them.I know alot of people who use the gram method with great success but 4 is my magic number and i havent had any problems yet.
Knock on wood.You want to keep a close eye on your female for the next couple of months.Like the post said above I would find a good reptile vet just in case she becomes egg bound....Paul

Weather You planned it or not your probably gonna be a grandpa. My bet is she will probably be just fine. She will probably only lay three or four eggs, and there is a chance none of them will make it. Mother nature has a pretty good record on these kind of things. Making mistakes like this is all a part of learning something new. I'm definatly not going to bash somebody who has the love for snakes as I do. Good luck, read all you can and keep asking questions.
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1,0 snow
1,0 amel

1,0 aney stripe motley
0,1 normal
0,1 anery
0,1 motley
1,1 oketee
1,1 tx rat
4,4 ball python
1,1 dumerils boa
1,0 columbian red tail boa
1,1 green iguana
1,0 leopard gecko
1,3 dogs
freezer full of mice & rats

Its been my experience that males of most species will mate with any female that is willing, whether she is physically mature or not. A few animals like wolves, need to have both sexes in heat to mate successfully. Male Domesticated dogs, unlike male wolves are just as eager to mate with anything as alot of other animals.

It is always best to separate a male once he is close to being possibly sexually mature from other males and deffinitely other females. Some females can come into season just because there is a randy male with her.

I was gonna reply but while I typed, everyone beat me to it! hot topic?n/p
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www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes