Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am planning on purchasing 0.1 albino labrynth burm and a 1.0 super tiger male this summer. In a few years I'd like to breed them. Since the tiger trait is co-dominant and breeding a super tiger to a normal retic produces all tigers this would have to lead to a new morph of bateater. I realize the albino and labrynth genes are simple recessive and would only come into play should I breed the offspring back to either an albino, labrynth, or albino labrynth burm. Does anyone have any information on this? Thanks.

I think the bateater that Kevin has at NERD is a tiger crossed with a burm,as far as future morphs from this cross would create,I think he'd be the best one to ask...or Bob Clark.

I was just wondering if anyone had bred a super to a burm, because I would REALLY like to see pics of these if they exist. I imagine they would be stunning.

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How about NOT crossing them so you don't further corrupt the gene pool? Do all of us and future generations a favor. Really, this "morphing"/interbreeding has gotten out of hand and I don't think people are thinking about what they are doing. As I posted on another forum, I have a baby Indian python and have to wonder whether it is 100% Indian or perhaps 90% Indian and 10% Burmese. All thanks to thoughtless and irresponsible people who crossed Burmeses and Indians. If people could state one good reason for some of these morphs, then OK. Most (albinos excepted) are very dull and boring appearing relative to the natural snakes, although that's a side issue. The point is, what is your reason for corrupting the gene pool? A better snake? A better looking snake (ha!)? A stronger snake? A more docile snake? I understand the "fun" of messing around with this stuff, I really do, but I don't think its worth the damage that can be done to the gene pool, and I don't think morphers/interbreeders have seriously considered this.

If, in 30 years from now, most captive retics have some burmese genes in them, well, those who did it deserve to go somewhere very hot when they die. Very thoughtless people. Shame on them.

Perhaps you could get off your soap box. *rolls eyes*

How about you can breed 100% pure animals and be happy in doing that and people who wish to cross animals can do that as well? I like bateaters and think they're an amazing looking animal. Not to mention the fact that they're very difficult to produce. How far do you need to go with keeping gene pools "clean"? Are we only allowed to breed locality specifc animals? Please tell everyone else how everything should be done so we don't offend you.

Those are legitimate comments. The only answer I have, given the minimal thought I've dedicated towards it, is something like the American Kennel Club or whatever they call it nowadays.
Manage breeding, protect the gene pool, and let others corrupt the pool to their hearts' content. Even though there are 10 million mutts (which are great pets) running around out there, at least the dog breeders have kept a good gene pool.

I just located a large female burmese for my male super. I'll let you know how everything pans out.

if you have something wrong with morph breeding in reptiles then you must DEFINATELY have something wrong with dog, cat, and horse breeds. since you complain about morph breeding why are you not complaining about how people haven't been able to see a "normal" (ie. not a breed) of domesticated dog, cat, or horse in thousands of years? even wild horses are just mixed breeds. if you keep posting threads like this stop having the double standard.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

First of all, I would like to begin by stating for the record that I am neither "for" or "against" anyone in this debate. I see very valid points of view on both sides of this debate and quite frankly I agree with everyone.

I do see anacondakeepers point and I too agree that great care should be taken over the long haul to ensure that pure unpoluted gene pools in every species remain and are maintained in their purity. I am a strong advocate of this.

But at the same time I am a breeder of morphs (as well as pure breeds) by trade. I see very little wrong with breeding and isolating genuinely beautiful pattern or color traits to create a more appealing and thus more marketable snake. To isolate a stripe or a color is no different than breeding a colombian with a prettier tail to another with a choice tail and then selectivly breeding the choiciest offspring in 3 or 4 years. I think that some inbreeding is perfectly acceptable. Related snakes undoubtedly occasionally breed in the wild. Siblings from a clutch don't hop on different planes and fly to different, isolated parts of the country they originated in. They remain in a relatively small region until they mature and breed and the odds may be very high that they end up breeding with a relative, a sibling or a parent. Most especially in island populations.

This is not to say that great care when knowingly inbreeding should not be taken. On the contrary I think that very strict measures should always be taken to not inbreed any more than is absolutely necessary. I am a very strong advocate of outbreeding with normals to create stronger, more diverse genes found in hets. This will undoubtedly prevent ultimate retardation and defective offspring. It may take a lot longer to achieve one's goals or make a lot of money, but in the long AND short run it will certainly be better all around to not have excessively weak, overly inbred genes. And most importantly,. it is better for the animals themselves.

Now, to lilroaches point.... it's a good one. All "modern breed" dogs are derived from wild african dogs, and or wild wolves. While there are so many "pure breed" dogs to be found in the AKC they are all technically "mutts" derived from the pure wild animals, and have not been around for longer than several hundred to a thousand years. While technically ALL animal species on the planet are threatened by humanity and our means of survival, the wolf and wild dog populations are still in existance. While still highly endangered, I think any threat is more due to our societal encroachment and greedy, evil, thoughtless ways than to producing St Bernards or poodles. By this I mean we take what we want or think we need to survive and never give back to the planet. What dies in our path is mostly regarded with no regard whatsoever. This is what is killing the wild animals. Not captive breeding of hybrids.

Now, to back anacondakeepers very valid point and to meld it to the very valid wolf point made by lilroach,.... in the 60's and 70's wolves were slaughtered and pushed out of their environment almost to the point of extinction in yellowstone and surrounding regions. It was only by breeding existing, unrelated captive specimens in zoos that a new, genetically diverse population was established. So it is indeed very important to always maintain pure species' specimens. The same thing happened with the bald eagles with the DDT fiasco and resulting breedings of captive specimens.

Sorry for getting so long winded here. It's just such a sensetive and complex subject of a vast magnitude that goes beyond us little snake breeders and our silly morph projects. It really can't just be summed up with a short little, "I think it's okay" answer. It's really all about the planet and her animals and the sooner we as a species realize this, the better for us all. We humans are not exempt from the laws of nature. And if we continue to think that we are above it or somehow outside of it we are eventually in the path of our own destruction. Everything is interlocked and connected. We can't just screw up this planet and move to Mars. lol.

>>if you have something wrong with morph breeding in reptiles then you must DEFINATELY have something wrong with dog, cat, and horse breeds. since you complain about morph breeding why are you not complaining about how people haven't been able to see a "normal" (ie. not a breed) of domesticated dog, cat, or horse in thousands of years? even wild horses are just mixed breeds. if you keep posting threads like this stop having the double standard.
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>>0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
>>0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
>>1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Only ONE SMALL problem with some AKC dogs: They are hopelessly inbred and line bred in order to fix and maintain traits that are desirable to us but not to the dog whatsoever. Along with fixing the GOOD traits, they also bring in "bad traits" with them and fix those as permanent herdeditary fixtures in a breeds makeup.

Example: Shepherds bred for body conformation with increased susceptability to HIP- DYSPLASIA,or English Bulldogs that have to be C-sectioned so they can deliver there Big headed babies, that in turn are heat& cold sensitive and prone to infections in the wrinkles of their skin. Real quality breeding going on there, you betcha....

Bottem line: Dogs that are mutts,created from breeding other dog types(Still ALL dogs) are much healthier and generally better emotionally balanced and less prone to problems related to inbreeding, line breeding, and everywhere. Once again, these are ALL DOGS, so no hybridization is going on here, unless they cross wild dogs, foxes or other canids into the soup..

I breed Eastern Indigos. If I did not have diverse bloodlines, and inbred to fix certain traits(I.E red-faced easterns) I BELIEVE that problems would pop up similar to what dog breeders are seeing. In some snakes it allready is, because of really small gene pools in captive populations.Which is a shame. Also, you tend to see problems occuring in snakes that are line bred, esp if they are not out crossed. Example:One eyed "Winkie" albino boas that pop up. Just a few thoughts on this subject.

Thanks,

Fred Albury

Thank you O Holy One for your uninformed, inept, yet amusing prophecy of times to come!

You don't know if your Indians are pure most likely because you are unaware of how to conduct a scale count. The reason behind the hybridization/intergradation (you may have to look these words up)of Python molurus bivittatus/Burmese and Python molurus molurus/Indian is simple. During the early captive propagation of the Indian python specimines were few and far between. Thus many breeders would substitute a Burmese python in breeding; and in future generations, they would breed the intergrades back to a pure Indian python, resulting in offspring that were 75% Indian and could pass as pure to inexperienced collectors and breeders, but ONLY IF THEY COULDN'T CONDUCT A SCALE COUNT.

Is there currently a lack of 100% pure Burmese or Reticulated pythons? NO!

If you had thought about this subject for more than 30 seconds before opening your mouth, you would realize that what happened in the past is unlikely to occur agian. When was the last time you went to a show and saw a bateater mislabeled as a normal burm and selling at $50. Why would someone do that? They put all that time and effort into a project just to sell the offspring for less. Anyone with an IQ over 15 who is intrested in breeding reticulated pythons or burmese pythons knows a bateater when they see one and therefore are unlikely to unknowingly breed the animal to a burm or a retic and market the offspring as anything other than what they actually are.

Diversity is what drives the Reticulated python market. Size, color, pattern, hybrid, whatever floats your boat.I like mutant retics.If you don't like them, don't buy them; but PLEASE SHUT UP!

So, you stick to whatever it is that you do, i.e. complaining, running off at the mouth and trolling for trouble on forums. If you want to share your uneducated views and brew up some animosity, you could try hitting up the hybrid forum next.

Now, if you wouldnt mind me making a request of you. Please email me and provide your true and full name. I hope to produce albino tigers next year and would enjoy naming the first one after you.

Darrell Armstrong
reticulus@aol.com

Gee.. I’m just concerned about the future.

You’re very welcome. I know how to do scale counts, and in fact, I suspect they are not deterministic in all cases. I know the suboculars from the supralabials. See, that’s exactly the morph/hybrid problem, you end up with an “Indian” with subocular scales or some other variation. The main reason for the Indian/Burmese hybrids originates from the CITES I regulations. You can read about them on the internet. People were/are trying to circumvent the regulations.

Is there currently a lack of 100% pure Burmese or Reticulated pythons? You are right, no lack. What about in the year 2300? This entire issue has to do with populations over time, not what Joe Blow did today.

What happens in the past is not a good indicator of what happens in the future? You gotta be kidding. Isn’t there some wise saying about history repeating itself? I guess you are not a student of history, are you?

Try this test: Go to your local reptile/pet store and find a retic. Ask the store what the snake’s pedigree is – who bred it, pedigrees of parents, etc. You know the store guy will say “uhhh…we don’t know that…”. Or go read Issue 2 of the UK journal Reptile Care and read about the guy that bought a pair of retic varieties and see what he found out. Every time I go to a reptile show, there is a young guy looking at a snake. He asks, “What kind of snake is that?” “What does it eat?” Only $120? I’ll buy it….

But I won’t shut up, because morphers are affecting the rest of us. If you would morph, but prevent them from getting into the general population, then fine. But you morphers have no consideration for future people or the snakes. You can’t think beyond today and the dire consequences of corrupting the gene pool.

Please, tell me there’s no hybrid forum…please…please.

I appreciate the offer to name a snake after me, that’s really cool. I have been keeping snakes for 30 years. I think I deserve one being named after me. Hee-Hee. But, alas, I shall pass having an unnatural morph named after me. I suppose I will have to wait until someone discovers a new snake species in my backyard, then they can name it after me. Python holiness predictus.

You know, this should be an intellectual debate or issue, not an emotional one. Its fine to disagree, but people should offer some data to support views. I've offered the Indian/Burmese example, the ball python example, and the human example. I bet if challenged, I could find an original animal species that is no longer living, because it has been hybridized or morphed.

Im a morpher now? Are you implying that Im some sort of... power ranger? To much TV. Entirely to much TV.

How am I affecting other people? I havent shown up on anyones door step pushing mutant retics or hybrids on them or sneeking into peoples homes and slinging snakes around. Why should I keep morphs from entering the general population? Isnt that why these animals are produced, so they can be shared with other people who are intrested in them. You dont see people marketing morphs as normals, theres no point to it. Therefore, people know what there getting and can direct their project in a direction that will enable them to produce what they intend to regardless of what it is. Contraty to what you belive this will not result in the world wide distruction of a species.

There are enough people producing locale or species specific animals that I dont imagine that people who are looking for them will be unable to obtain them. NERD has some great stuff on both ends of the spectrum. The same can be said for Jay Brewer, Bob Clark, the Baldigos (thats probably spelled incorectly) and as many others that I care to name and those are only some of the big guys. There are untold numbers of us little guys who the same may be true for. This dosnt make us monsters. It makes us people with a goal in mind who are willing to work to achive it. This dosnt give anyone the right to condem us or what were doing.

People who have mutants are people who want mutants. People with pure Ambons are people are people who want them. The same is true for any number of other pure species. Im not telling anyone what to buy or what to produce. Everyone is going to do exactly what they want to. The animals are there to insure that people are able to achive anything they want to with them wheather thats a pure super dwarf or an albino calico super tiger with three heads. I dont think that anyones going to wipeout a species by breeding for albinism.

Any clue who produced the origional bateater? Mother nature. I dont know whose collection it wound up in or if they bread it but, somehow I doubt that theyll "go somewhere hot when they die" for doing it.

It isnt even your view of hybridization and the production of mutants that irks me. Its your condemnation and attempted dictation of whose going where when the bell tolls. We lost some damn fine Marines in Iraq. My unit lost one in Um Quasr on our first day in. Id hate to think that PFC Guiteriz is burning for anything as trivial as this. Consider this next time you look down your nose at someone, especially a group of people and speak of where they deserve to go.

I disagree that most captive retics will have burm blood in them 3o years from now. I DO agree and lament the fact that pure INDIAN Pythons are not that easy to come by. I saw a pair at a show recently, and the FIRST thing that popped into my mind was"Are they indeed pure Indians, or IndianXBurm crosses? I am NOT a proponent of hybridization, period.But to hybridize a snake that is as rare as an Indian, seems entirely wrong, and moronic from a marketing standpoint, esp if just a scale count can differentiate the two. As far as Burm X Retic crosses, I dont like them either, but people wildo with their snakes what they wish, you cant stop that or regulate it. Best way to boycott it is to just not purcahse them, and breed your own pure strains of your snake and sell them to people who appreciate what you are selling and dont necessarily want something else. Just my opinion.

thanks,

Fred Albury

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