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Seeing as hybrids are the only way to produce certain types of bloodlines (jungle corns etc) I would say that they are a great expansion to the reptile industry.

I would also think that because crossing colubrids can bring some amazingly colored babies and wonderful new morphs that it would be a highly accepted practice. Unfortunatly there are still afew strong willed believers that think "hybrids are bad".

Stating that hybrids are a bad thing basically criticises not only some of the wonderful morphs of reptiles but also brings down crosses in canine and feline species. There are hundreds if not thousands of sought after dog and cat "hybrids"...are they too bad?

And lastly, in an extreme comparison, I would say that if hybrids are a "no-no" that would classify interracial marriages and relationships as a "no-no" as well...which I would consider racism.

As for parasites and diseases to be passed on...as long as your reptiles are healthy and captive bred, I would expect no problems...but you'd have to monitor the behavior between the two species as well as any problems in the aggressino department. (ie biting, fighting)

As long as you use your own judgement (don't be putting a 6 foot gopher with a 2 foot corn as the gopher would eat the corn as a snack) there should be no problems with creating wonderful new hybrid morphs.

In the words of Dennis Miller, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong".
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Chris Vanderwees
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Well, I take it back...seeing as humans are of the same species...an interacial relationship would be considered to produce a "morph" between two of the same species....but either way it was an extreme comparison which was beside the point.

Also, hybrids naturally occur in the wild...the specimins are rare and the survival rate is low due to the trouble that a hybrid would experiance to find a mating partner.
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Chris Vanderwees
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The problem with hybridizing snakes is that the result is often a fertile animal that, if released where they occur, could interbreed with wild snakes of either species. King and corn snakes do NOT hybridize in the wild. Contaminating the gene pools of wild populations is a big risk. The animals are beautiful, but worth the risk? I personally don't believe that they are.
If hybrids were always sterile, I doubt many folks would have a problem with it at all.

All house cats are Felis domesticus. All dogs are Canis familiaris (or Canis lupus familiaris, depending on who you ask). A mutt of either animal is NOT a hybrid. A chihuahua is the same species as a Saint Bernard--they aren't even different subspecies. (Humans have no subspecies, either--our gene pool is too narrow, possibly due to the eruption of the mega-volcano Toba about 75,000 years ago: http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:chiqlS5rewsJ:www.clas.ufl.edu/users/krigbaum/6930/ambrose_2003_jhe.edu.pdf toba eruption date&hl=en&ie=UTF-8).

There HAVE been some wild cats crossed into domestic cat lines lately, and this has been scrutinized with equal disapproval. Part of the reason there hasn't been a huge outcry against is because most of the hybrid cats in question were produced several continents away from their wild cat counterparts.
The Bengal cat breed has a smidgen of Asian Leopard Cat in its bloodline, but is still largely a domestic cat. Hybrid cats require an exotic animals license to keep (though Bengal cats do not, they are considered to be simply a breed, and are no longer considered to be hybrids, because the fraction of wild cat in their line is so small).

Then too, domestic cats may in fact be the result of several wild cats being crossed together and domesticated, over the ages. There are good candidates for progenitor species in both Africa and Asia. Domestic cats pose a threat (through interbreeding) to the European Wildcat population at this point in time.

Is there anything inherently wrong with a hybrid? No. But I do think that people should keep their hybrids to themselves, or distribute them only to a very select group of trusted and knowledgeable persons who will not deliberately or inadvertantly release the animals into the wild in an area where they may pose a gene-contamination threat to wild snake populations.

There is nothing wrong with the individual hybrid itself... But what happens inevitably is; A) People end up breeding hybrids back into the pure gene pool and aren't up front about it when selling the offspring... B) These hybrids end up escaping and finding their way back into the wild where they could possibly interbreed with wild populations causing irreversable damage...

Sure there are honest people out there that breed hybrids... But do they really know much about the people that they sell to? I can't speak for you, but if I shell out over a grand for an eastern indigo I would be pretty irate to find out that it was crossed with a black rat or pine and wasn't advertised as such... To me hybrids make it harder to trust people unless they are very reputable...

Just my opinion...

Eric Johnson

Regarding domestic dogs: They are all wolves. They have been
selectively bred for different shapes, sizes and colors, so
cross breed dogs are not hybrids. A hybrid would be a wolf/fox
or wolf/coyote. Just some nerdy science, sorry...

Well, you are setting yourself up for a royal flaming, which I'll let others handle but just a few points:

Seeing as hybrids are the only way to produce certain types of bloodlines (jungle corns etc) I would say that they are a great expansion to the reptile industry.

So you're saying hybrids are the only way to produce hybrids...well, ok can't argue with that.

Stating that hybrids are a bad thing basically criticises not only some of the wonderful morphs of reptiles but also brings down crosses in canine and feline species. There are hundreds if not thousands of sought after dog and cat "hybrids"...are they too bad?

Are you talking about dog and cat breeds? They aren't different species. There are only a few inter-species crosses I'm aware of (like dog-wolf hybrids or domestic cat-european wildcat crosses). And yeah, I'm betting anti-hybrid folks would be against those.

And lastly, in an extreme comparison, I would say that if hybrids are a "no-no" that would classify interracial marriages and relationships as a "no-no" as well...which I would consider racism.

So if by making a jungle corn you're striking a blow against the Klan? That's certainly a new pro-hybrid snake arguement, I have to admit. Human races aren't different species (if you think they are I would consider that racism). And we aren't captive breeding homo sapiens. And your Cal King and corn snake aren't star-crossed lovers fighting against society's prejudices. And its just a dumb comparison.

First, I think we can all agree that the "extreme" comparison can be extracted and I already admitted to it being an error...seeing as WE are all the same species. But the funny part is that if a white person and a black person produce a child...is that child considered a morph? Ha, sorry another stupid statement.

Either way, there have been cases of hybrids in the wild. Someday I'll go search out my sources but for now...I'll let you guys argue against that fact.

What possible threat does a hybrid pose to the environment??? (I'm not criticising with this question...I'm actually curious...because I don't know) Especially if the snake is captive bred...since I live in Canada...maybe I can't identify with the effects of releasing a hybird into the wild in California or Florida but in Ontario, a corn snake would be dead by nightfall.

Seeing as I have never delt with hybrids...I don't really know a whole hell of a lot about them. I just wanted to throw out a bunch of arguements to see what people think.

But seriously, if somebody could answer the question about the environmental effects of a hybrid I'd be curious...

In the cases (of which I have yet to prove to this forum) that I've seen...the hybrids found in the wild...were deathly ill or dead already...they do not reproduce because no snake can identify them as a mate. I don't really know all the facts for sure I'd have to find the article again.

Anyway...thanks for the replies...and I'd like to hear other views on why hybrids are so bad...because personally, I'll be creating some hybrids next season unless someone can discourage me otherwise. The enivronment issue doesn't really concern my snakes as when they leave the house they only have a matter of hours before they'd freeze to death....not that any of my snakes could ever escape our rack system anyway unless a human left one of the tubs open.

thanks for the opinions...i'm only trying to have a discussion, don't take any of the comments to heart.
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Chris Vanderwees
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Maybe you should have looked up the definitions of hybrid and species before posting. The examples you used are inaccurate and beside the point.

At best they are a ticking time bomb to screw up numerous ecosystems.

"Freeze em and feed em"

There are to many endangered and rare animals who's bloodlines could be destroyed. Mutts are great for feeders though.

Sitting back and watching this yarn spin its way out. HYBRIDS.
I think it comes down to people just ALWAYS wanting something NEW. New house, new car, even new wife! New , new, new .Our society encourages discontent with old things.We MUST have new and when we cant have find anything new, or we THINK we cant, then we must CREATE new.

Kemper is entirely right,with SO MANY endangered and threatened species to work with it seems a shame to not put the energies of these snake breeders into those snakes.But that is their choice, as poor as I beleive it to be...

K.J. is entirely right also,(see post below) as a person that has bred Eastern Indigos for the past ten years, it dismays me to see people even talk about crossing them with something else. Arent there few enough left in this country of ours as it is? Why muddy the picture with hybrids? (assuming it worked, thank God they EAT other snakes...like hybrids )

Just my bigoted opinion.

and two cents..or four cents..

Fred Albury

(Sitting back and watching this yarn spin its way out. HYBRIDS.
I think it comes down to people just ALWAYS wanting something NEW. New house, new car, even new wife! New , new, new .Our society encourages discontent with old things.We MUST have new and when we cant have find anything new, or we THINK we cant, then we must CREATE new.)

Sorry Fred, but this, to me, seems like nothing more than a completely irrelevant generalization. Who exactly is the "we" you are talking about? It isn't me or anyone I know. Who do you know who must "create" new herps or has already done so and how has it affected any captive gene pools?

"Kemper is entirely right,with SO MANY endangered and threatened species to work with it seems a shame to not put the energies of these snake breeders into those snakes.But that is their choice, as poor as I beleive it to be...)

But many people ARE putting their efforts into preserving "captive" purity even though it has nothing to do with preserving the wild population. That doesnt mean that EVERYBODY is obligated to turn their hobby into a crusade to preserve the purity of all herps. Those who want pure animals will be able to obtain them. Those who just want a pretty or different snake will also be able to obtain them. That doesn't affect your collection or mine unless we are stupid enough (as experienced herpers) to let that happen.

(K.J. is entirely right also,(see post below) as a person that has bred Eastern Indigos for the past ten years, it dismays me to see people even talk about crossing them with something else. Arent there few enough left in this country of ours as it is? Why muddy the picture with hybrids? (assuming it worked, thank God they EAT other snakes...like hybrids )

Great! Then do your part and go after those people if you think it will make a difference. Who are they and how have they affected the trade?

(Just my bigoted opinion.)

Enough said.

Grey

That logic kind of puts hybrids and morphs in the same light as its pretty well established that morph production isn't conservation. If you hatched an albino indigo what would you do with it?

Upon my transition from lurker to poster, I decided to make my first dabble in the Open Discussion Forum. What a can of worms! It get's a little hot and heavy in there. Anyhow, I was directed by an anonymous (Al?) through private e-mail to a different herp site which I will refrain from mentioning here where there is reference to Fred's hatred for morphs as well as hybrids. If he produced an albino Indigo, I'm sure he would either freeze it or sell it for fifty grand. But I'm sure he wouldn't keep such an undesirable in his own collection. I was also directed to a thread that answered a previous question about Indigos. Thank's Al. You saved me a lot of time and trouble. While on the subject, are there any locality specific or wild caught "morphs" aside from Stillwaters? I am a little fuzzy on the whole morph thing with relation to what's man-made and what isn't.

If I hatched an albino indigo, I would be the first person to shamelesley take a ton of pictures of it(For sheer rarity), then sell it to Japan for thousand upon thousands of dollars, removing it far from these shores.

I would give the bulk of this money to a fund for Eastern Indigo conservation based in florida(Please see Indigo forum for more)

And I would sterilize it before it left my premises.

Fred

Hi there:

Right on! I mean, when you see a perfectly beautiful and robust corn snake, why would you want to make it look all wierd and strange. If someone was born with an odd skin disorder, imagine if people bred them to create a whole new race of people with yellow, flaking skin. Its just wrong! Morphs are a way of turning a wonderful and amazing animal into a collectors item. A classic gopher, or good old-fashioned corn are all I want. Albino, melanistic, Okeetee... That's about as far as I go. Wth the exception of these three morphs I'm against them all.

DAVE

Do you mean morphs or did you mean hybrids, that are horrible?????

Remember, Okeetee is not a morph, it is a locale.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

1. It isn't natural

2. Hybrids could escape into the wild and contaminate wild populations.

3. Untrustworthy breeders may sell hybrids as pure species and therefore contaminate captive populations of otherwise pure species

4. Hybrids are sterile

My replies:

1. Natural would be if a snake were capable to roam free in the wild, eats when it pleases, choose it's own habitat, and temperature and live and breed exactly how it prefers according to it's circumstances provided by nature...as soon as you put a snake in a fish tank, rack system, vivarium, etc You are taking it our of it's natural environment. Keeping a snake as a pet, for breeding stock to make money, to educate people etc Is not natural. Instead of the snake having a choice, we choose when it feeds, what temperature, what area of space it will live, and what it will breed to.

For a snake to be truly pure bred in captivity, one must breed it with another from the same locality as each population in the wild across it's range has a different genetic makeup. For example a cornsnake from the Miami area of Florida expresses different traits to those that are found in Okeetee region of South Carolina if we were to breed these together yes we would still have a cornsnake but it would not be true to it's own unique population we have genetically changed it, in the wild Miami hatchlings have a preference for small lizards whereas Okeete cornsnakes preference is for rodents other differences are colour and size of individuals, these are all determined by the genetic makeup of the snake. Even if we were to breed animals from the same locality together, more than likely when choosing animals to add to our collection, we would choose those that expressed the most desirable traits. eg: bright colours, well defined pattern, healthy and robust etc.By doing so we are determining who breeds with who and choosing what traits of the animal we want their babies to express.

Basically the hybrid snakes being bred are designer snakes. They are pets. Produced for the purpose of beauty and amazement of people. Basically all of the snakes captive bred are man-made, just as hybrids are. Without selective breeding operations you'd never find the morphs we do today. So why is breeding a hybrid a bad thing??? We'd only be creating another snake with unique looks.

2. This is certainly true, but the same could be said for any escapee snake, the chances of a hybrid snake surviving in the wild in our country (Canada) is very slim, and then to breed with one of our native snakes and produce young, highly unlikely. Even escapees in countries, provinces, and states where the conditions are right for them they would probably perish and die before reproducing as there immune system would not be sufficient to survive. Captive bred snakes especially do not have strong immune systems.

3. If you buy a snake that is not what it is supposed to be, that's just too bad. I know that if I were to breed hybrid snakes I would NEVER pass them off as something else. When buying any snake you should buy from a trusted source. I think I'd be more worried about buying healthy stock than buying a "mutt". Any breeder could get away with selling you unheathly stock as easily as someone could sell you a hybrid as a pure bred. Either way, buying from a trusted source is the key.

4. All the hybrids can be infertile but some show higher fertility than some normal snakes. So really you'd best check your breeding stock. More fertility problems have been seen in snakes that have been inbred than with hybrids. A lot of hybrids are stronger more robust than there parents, this is known as hybrid vigor, the passing of good traits from both parents gives the snake a survival boost. Evolution is based primarily on changes in gene frequencies, resulting (among other processes) from mutation, reproductive isolation, and recombination of genes through hybridization.

I hope this has strengthened my point. Either way, I don't think I'll change anyone's mind. But I see no danger in producing or selling hybrids as long as that is what you sell them as...if anyone has anymore valid points I'd love to hear them...thanks.
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Chris Vanderwees
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What is the goal of producing hybrids? There are snakes that are nearly gone, that need to be kept and breed in captivity, that are FAIR more beautiful than any mutt.

Here is an example, I am not trying to pick on anyone, just an example. Recently a person posted that he caught a gopher and put it in his bullsnake enclosure not thinking. When he came back they had bred. He asked what he should do? One option he mentioned was release it back into the wild. If she gave birth, after a few generations all of the gophers in that are could be contaminated and we would have no clue.

As for a snake getting out, that is a possibilty, but I keep big boas, so that is not an issue.

I just don't see a point to making cross bred animals, other than selfish reasons. There is NO good that can come out of it.

My answer to mutts:

FREEZE EM

.

I guess we're both entitled to our opinions but I still wonder who the hell would go and put any "wild" snake with his breeding or pet stock. Here we have strict quarentine procedures. And I do not deal with wild caught stock.
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The terrible threat to the environment...a snake that could never survive in the wild with a next to nothing immune system in a foreign climate...poses a threat??? even in it's natural habitat it would surely die of disease. Help me out here and explain this please.

thanks/
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ended up turning the specimen over to a proper authority, as was recommended. You shoud scroll further down to find the entire thread.
So far as hybrids, well lets just say this is an area where the language is catching up to the science, as is often the case.
In the academic setting, we like to refer to "hybrids" as specimens "created" when two seperate species are crossed ie Lampropeltis x Elaphe (or Pantherophis, depending upon who you ask) and there are no documented cases of such occurring within wild populations. Lets face it, when a Lampropeltis encounters an Elaphe in the wild! Well, you do not have to be a "professional" herpetologist to figure out the most likely scenario, and we all know it is unlikely to be a romantic rendezvous.
An integrate is formed when you cross subs of a single species, which do occur naturally, as is the case with Drymarchon unicolor x melanurus where the respective ranges of the two interceed.
The great fear is that a "hybrid" would somehow find its way into a wild population. If you could only imagine the problems this can create within the scientific community, when field surveys are conducted.
Also, the concern amongst individuals working with locality specific or, and here's that word again, (pure) specimens are quite concerned about bringing new specimens in to strengthen a gene pool. As many species are no longer available from the wild and demand for such increases, as does price, you will alwys find individuals lacking scruples, who will cross a variety of specimens to create the appearance of such specimens.
It is my understanding such attempts have already occurred involving species of Pituophis, notably P. ruthveni, and Drymarchon, notably erebennus.

Cheers,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.526.4856

Jeff,
Once again you provide the word needed. P. ruthveni is a perfect example for the problems hybrids bring. I Know a lot of individuals who question the parentage of any specimens available. This should be reason enough! Let he who has ears hear! Peace

Preacher Pat

In the "Cross Timbers" news letter for the DFW Herp Society this coming month there will be two articles about just this issue. The pro side is written by Stan Grumbeckand the con side by myself. You folks might find it intersting. It will be on their web sight when published. As far as this discussion, I have been thru this so many times that I am going to refrain from entering into it this time. But as I am sure most everyone knows we do not breed or condone breeding hybrids for a myrid of reasons.

Good Luck everyone,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Thank you, John,

I look forward to reading the article.
I am now beginning to understand why such explanations can become so tiresome, as I had no clue this issue would come up so often.

Jeff Snodgres
Univeristy of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.526.4856

Quite true, Bro. Pat,

I was hoping to obtain scale clippings, blood samples and shed skin samples of known captive P. ruthveni for cDNA, genome mapping and hybridization probe comparisons
Unfortunately, I have found the general community of private individuals who maintain such specimens to be quite uncooperative and very suspicious of one another. I suppose Drymarchon sp. will be my next candidates.

Regards,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.526.4856

>>Unfortunately, I have found the general community of private individuals who maintain such specimens to be quite uncooperative and very suspicious of one another.

LOL. I think I'm being talked about....

If you think I am suspicious of foul data when I'm on the hobbyist end, you should see me when I'm collecting data for MY research.....lol. I wish researchers were all as suspicious, or MORE so, of ruthveni bloodlines as Mr. Reichling! Suspicious has a negative tone to it. Cncerned better describes how most of us feel, I think.

Good luck on your stuudies: be it LA Pines, Eastern Indigos, or any other animal of special concern. They need as much research conducted on them as is possible - anything might end up being a key log in their protection and survival!
KJ
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Help to protect our rights

KJ,

Actually, I was making a generalized statement not directed at anyone in particular.
You are correct, that using the word suspicious was a bit harsh, and perhaps I should have said concerned. With that said, I found it odd that such concerned individuals were unwilling to provide material for a comparison analysis, which very well could have demonstrated who maintains true specimens and who doesn't.
So far as specific definitions of terms. Well, the meaning of a variety of terms change, not only as progress is made, but also when certain criteria are necessary to distinguish the relationship between a closely related subject. As can be the case with hybrid vs integrate, integrate vs intergrade or even clone vs parthenogenesis.
Oh well, as I like to say, "To each, their own."

Take care,

Jeff

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.526.4856

>>With that said, I found it odd that such concerned individuals were unwilling to provide material for a comparison analysis, which very well could have demonstrated who maintains true specimens and who doesn't.

Only because you are new to this particular "Southern Reptiles" rodeo.
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Help to protect our rights

I consider the offspring from breedings that cross species and higher taxonomic levels to be hybrids but understand that some take this to the sub-specific level or even to a given population's locality! Point well taken that before discussing whether or not hybrids are no nos one might want to consider that there isn't really a firm consensus on what a hybrid is.

As you point out, one of the two commonly raised objections over hibridized snakes is the concern that one might make its way into a "pure" project. To me this seems a moot point. I will only label animals as "pure" (locality) if the founding stock was personally collected by myself or a CLOSE friend / associate. Sorry but saying you got stock from so and so who is a "real stand up guy" just doesn't cut it anymore! The reality is the further you move from your inner circle the more SUBJECTIVE "data" you collect becomes. For me this came as a hard learned lesson but it should be well taken that vigorous elimination of ALL subjective data in the selection "pure" stock is the ONLY way to ensure its legitimacy. If all those who claim to be strict locality breeders did the same hybrids would NEVER find their way into "pure" collections.

The second commonly raised objection is the polluting of the gene pools of native populations. I have seen no evidence to support this concern but then for myself can only offer antidotal evidence that this isn't likely to happen. Native populations are marvelously adapted to particular habitats and exploit every advantage possible to survive. Even so their recruitment into breeding age populations is quite low and from there they still experience high levels of mortality. The concept that a captive produced hybrid might even survive seems far-fetched to me. That it would do well enough to successfully integrate with a native population and alter its evolutionary trajectory is, to me, an extreme alarmists view. Hybrids are domestic creations totally unsuited for survival in the wild. This scenario is no more likely than a Golden Guernsey bull escaping and polluting a population of white tailed deer!

"Hybrid" has a MUCH broader definition in "science" than you imply. A "Hybrid" mouse can be just one crossed between two bloodlines for increased vigor or "something."

By THAT definition, a man-made intergrade can rightfully be called a "hybrid" even if it isn't such in a TAXONOMIC sense. That is the definition used by, I believe, MOST of the hobby still to this date.

KJ
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Help to protect our rights

I know what you mean. I was going to purchase a Texas Indigo last month but was advised not to unless I could trace the lineage. I couldn't and wound up not getting the snake. What a downer. Maybe next year. Any ideas on who has real Texans or who to stay away from?

...because they are obnoxious, rude, and think they are better than people from Louisiana. All three of those statements are probably true, too....LMAO.

KJ "Tranplanted Coon*&& trying to fake being a Texas" Lodrigue, Jr.
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Help to protect our rights

K.J..........

We can't help it knowing we are all better than anyone from Louisiana!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!

just kidding bro........or shall I say Captain PIT?????

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

"And I do not deal with wild caught stock."

So your Iguana and your tocay gecko are cb? Who bred them?

When you buy your kimberly rocks someday I hope you don't mind them being 25% ackie?

The iguana was actually adopted from animal services as well as the tokay. I'm sure the iguana was captive bred actually, from someone locally. They tried to sell iguanas out as 15 bucks each to get rid of them...they all ended up in the hands of animal services and we took one. I would never plan on breeding it.

As for the tokay...it was also captive bred by a good friend of mine. It was the last baby of the clutch and I said I always wanted a tokay. It turned into an early christmas present.

Neither will ever be bred. And what I meant by "deal" was the actions of trading, selling, breeding...not keeping. Dealing would be a transaction of some sort.

Anyway, thanks for trying to criticise.
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Chris Vanderwees
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I thought we asked you folks to quit doing that??? Your too much trouble up there eh?

Wow, that was a big ol' clever remark from ya'll down there in California where your govenah' is AHNULD Swarzenwhatever.

I really hope you guys don't re-elect George. I mean he's funny and everything but damn, he's only funny for so long then it just gets annoying.

Anyway I think you are forgetting about and excellent canadian breeder: Henry Piorun, www.a1pythons.com

also Don Patterson.

Excellent stock, maybe you'll order from him someday.
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Chris Vanderwees
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1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas

>>I really hope you guys don't re-elect George. I mean he's funny and everything but damn, he's only funny for so long then it just gets annoying.

So is royalty, or is that a subject we can't talk about?
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Help to protect our rights

Royalty?

We're not british, we're Canadaian...I don't give a crap about the King or Queen. Just because they are on the back of our coins doesn't mean we don't laugh at them every bit as much as you guys do.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.4.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas

>>We're not british, we're Canadaian...I don't give a crap about the King or Queen. Just because they are on the back of our coins doesn't mean we don't laugh at them every bit as much as you guys do.

Personally, I have never laughed at Canadians for their connection to the Royal Family (past or present). I pity Canadians for lose of other liberties. Best y'all ever had got kicked out and sent to south Louisiana....lol.
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Help to protect our rights

With a puny military armed with sticks and stones it's a wonder the British haven't invaded. Why don't you guys get a pair and join the war on terrorism! The only good thing to come out of Canada was round pig fat and tree sap!

the british don't invade because it's too frickin cold. and we bring you maple syrup, sars, and mad cow disease...so be thankful.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.4.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas

So I hope everyone had fun. Thanks for helping me come to a conclusion about hyrbrids. I hope nobody took offense to anything that was said. Good luck for everyone and I don't think I'll be breeding any hybrids anytime soon.

I'm just excited because our leos and cresteds are gravid and ready to deposit the eggs.

Thanks to everyone and lets not talk about hybrids for a while...my head hurts.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.4.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas

Uhh, Uhh, nevermind, it isn't worth the trouble to type......

dc