Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this in the gopher/bull/pine snake forum as there are a few people who are against hybrids. Those people are rather funny. Let me know if you agree or agree to disagree. Thanks.

Seeing as hybrids are the only way to produce certain types of bloodlines (jungle corns etc) I would say that they are a great expansion to the reptile industry.

I would also think that because crossing colubrids can bring some amazingly colored babies and wonderful new morphs that it would be a highly accepted practice. Unfortunatly there are still afew strong willed believers that think "hybrids are bad".

Stating that hybrids are a bad thing basically criticises not only some of the wonderful morphs of reptiles but also brings down crosses in canine and feline species. There are hundreds if not thousands of sought after dog and cat "hybrids"...are they too bad?

And lastly, in an extreme comparison, I would say that if hybrids are a "no-no" that would classify interracial marriages and relationships as a "no-no" as well...which I would consider racism.

As for parasites and diseases to be passed on...as long as your reptiles are healthy and captive bred, I would expect no problems...but you'd have to monitor the behavior between the two species as well as any problems in the aggressino department. (ie biting, fighting)

As long as you use your own judgement (don't be putting a 6 foot gopher with a 2 foot corn as the gopher would eat the corn as a snack) there should be no problems with creating wonderful new hybrid morphs.

In the words of Dennis Miller, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong".
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
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1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
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You are really off base on the race issue. Interacial unions are not between two different species. We are the same species. That would be more like breeding a green burm to a labrynth burm. People breeding with chimpanzees would be more accurate as we share 98% of our DNA with them, but we are two different species.

I said and "extreme" comparison. But whatever. Either way hybrids naturally occur in the wild. The babies are rare because they lack the survive skills of non-hybrids. They would also have much trouble finding a mate.

And the conversation was refering to Colubrids. So breeding a king to a corn could be something like an interacial relationship. But that was beside the main point of the arguement.

Again, just my opinion I could be wrong.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.4.0 Corn Snakes
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1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
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have you ever seen a WC hybrid?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

I think there are natural hybrids Gaboon x Rhino vipers occur naturally.

rhino viper? what is that?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

A rhino viper is a venomous snake found in Africa. If you go to the classified adds under the venomous section you can usually find someone who is selling them along w/ a picture.

do you know the taxonomy of them and gaboon vipers?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

The latin on the Rhino viper is Bitis nasicornis-no suspecies. The Gaboon viper has two subspecies Bitis gabonica gabonica and Bitis gabonica rhinoceros. They are all from the Viperidae classification.

Just as an aside, the Bitis are the most adorable snakes on the face of the planet. They only narrowly edge out Atheris for this honor.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

I've seen a few. Most are intergrades though. You don't really have many true "hyrbids" as a corn and a king are not going to breed in the wild. They simply don't. You have to trick most of them to do so in captivity. A few examples of the "hyrbids" which are really just intergrades of the same species:
desert x speckled kings
various pantherophis obsoleta intergrades
Nerodia clarkii x N.f.confluens (not sure on this one...clarkii were formerly classified as fasciata, so this in my opinion, is still on the fence as to wether it is just a hyrbid or an intergrade)
blotched x yellowbelly water snakes

Those are just a few that came to mind. As you can see, most are of the same genus and species, though just a different subspecies. I wouldn't exactly call them hybrids, as you are most likely not going to go out and find, as I said, corns breeding with kings.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I agree for the most part you will not be able to find a natural occuring hybrid--but there are wild caught Gaboon vipers (Bitis gabonica gabonica) X Rhino vipers (Bitis nasicornis) which in fact are different species but they are the same genus. I was simply answering a previous post about the validity of WC hybrids. They do exist to some extent NOT to the extent that people have taken them to.

Look at the Kentucky cabbage ape. It is living proof of a natural hybridization between the North/Western bigfoot and the Southern skunk ape. I'm not kidding...
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1.0 snow corn snake '02
0.1 butter corn snake '02
0.1 anery motley corn snake '02
0.1 hi-red corn snake '02
0.1 CB KY locality corn snake '02
1.1 Texas Baird's rat snake '00
0.1 albino radiated rat snake '03
1.1 tri-color hognose snake '03
1.0 gray banded king snake '03
1.1 albino striped Cal king snake '01
1.1 black milk snake '01&'03

Just saw someone that caught a Gopher x Cal King
last week. Posted on another Reptile forum.

Joe

Not a herp, but there are numerous examples of Huskies getting pregnant by wild wolves. . .
Corinne

Don't laugh, I have seen some people that make me believe that there really are human/chimp hybrids... Especially in and around Pine Bluff Ark...

even though all humans are considered to be "the same species" there are still social differences which define our race or origin...which I would think we could consider...a cross between a black and white person...maybe a morph?

Ha, this is stupid...
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.4.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas

Races basically ARE morphs. There are six genes which determine the amount of melanism present in a person's skink. I'm hypomelanistic, how about you?
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

6 genes that determine the amount of melanism in a persons skink. was that a typo? if it was it was a funny one.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

That's the most kick-ass typo I've ever made!
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

yup It was one sweet typo. do you mind if i put it in the bottom of my post thingy?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

Knock yourself out... you may also use "If my name were Otis Spunkmeyer, I would live every day to the fullest".
However, the use of "I feel so listless, I think someone is drugging my cocoa" is strictly forbidden.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

So far as hybrids, well lets just say this is an area where the language is catching up to the science, as is often the case.
In the academic setting, I like to refer to "hybrids" as specimens "created" when two seperate species are crossed ie Lampropeltis x Elaphe (or Pantherophis, depending upon who you ask) of which there are no documented cases of such occurring within wild populations. Lets face it, when a Lampropeltis encounters an Elaphe in the wild! Well, you do not have to be a "professional" herpetologist to figure out the most likely scenario, and we all know it is unlikely to be a romantic rendezvous.
An integrate is formed when you cross subs of a single species, which do occur naturally, as is the case with Drymarchon unicolor x melanurus where the respective ranges of the two interceed.
The great fear is that a "hybrid" would somehow find its way into a wild population. If you could only imagine the problems this can create within the scientific community, when field surveys are conducted, pending the escaped specimen, or specimens are sterile.
Also, the concern amongst individuals working with locality specific or, and here's that word again, (pure) specimens, are quite concerned about bringing new specimens into their respective collections, from outside sources, to strengthen their captive gene pool.
As many species are no longer available from the wild and demand for such increases, as does price, you will always find individuals, lacking scruples, who will cross a variety of specimens to create the phenotypic specimens of rare subs.
It is my understanding such attempts have already occurred involving species of Pituophis, notably P. ruthveni, and Drymarchon, notably D. c erebennus.

Cheers,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.526.4856

how can you compare people to snakes?
please tell me what the difference is between a "black" person and a "white" person is besides their skin color?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

Dogs are all one species (Canis lupis familaris). Dog breeds are bascially very extreme and inbred morphs. Same goes for cats and people (well, people races aren't that inbred themselves but the entire human race itself has a suprisingly small gene pool compared to other species.) Hybridism is a breeding between two species.

Hybridism is not a black and white issue. It is not always evil, but it is not always good. If a rare species is hybridized, it can become very tough to get a pure specimen of that species. This has happened with Indian pythons and is happening with diamond pythons. I like having pure specimens sometimes because I like the idea that my animal is a representative of something that exsists in the wild.
It will never be difficult to get a pure cornsnake, so that's not really a concern. But saying all hybridism is fantastic is as much of a fallacy as saying that it's all bad.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

I have now just gotten into the hybrids a lttle more seriously. I was always interested in the jungle corns but was reluctant due to the mass telling everyone that hybrids are infertile and had serious risks involved such as blindness. Now I have met several others who are much more high profile than I am but choose not to advertise their involvement just because of the reprocussions in the herp community. There are a lot of haters in this industry and it is depressing. Recently there has been a lot of newcomers that have gotten into this so called "underground" hobby/business and I have found that the prices of standard animals are being driven right into the ground. This is the primary reason I have decided to dig deeper into the hybrid side as the prettier ones have been able to sustain a little more money. It is really hard to strive for great strains of snakes when you cant justify all the hard work needed for breeding. I am not saying that everyone should do it but the best example I know of is AAA reptile supply. They have a quote to live by for hybrids and "purebloods" alike.

Another point to bring up is that if it was so unnatural then why is it possible? I mean a dog cannot breed with a cat so unless someone decides to make a corn crossed with a ball python (which I would love to see a sunglow colored one) by means of test tube and science lab it must be mother natures way of increasing the odds of survival.

There are many opinions on this that have been discussed a hundred times and the outcome is always the same. A BIG line drwn in the sand. Some on one side and some on the other. My opinion, just do what you like and do it with something in mind not just to see if its possible. The rewards are all self gratifying.

VERY WELL SAID!

First of all, this is a few post back but, some natural intergrades are the goini kingsnake, and the "gabino" viper (rhino x gaboon), the greenish ratsnake, and I'm sure there are others though. The next thing is, that it's possible because they are so closely related that they can still interbreed, sometimes they are fertile, sometimes they aren't, just depends on how closely related they are (or how "far apart they've grown", it's probably more complicated than that but, that's my take. But just because it does happen in the wild doesn't mean it's right, take a look back at the Irish Elk, an elk that ended up becoming extinct because the females could not stop the genetic urge to mate with the male with the largest antlers, thus the Irish Elk grew to have antlers TWELVE FOOT tip to tip and it killed them because it was just too much antler for one animal to have (well, that's the most popular theory anyway).

Also, money is a fine reason to go into breeding a type of animal, as long as you don't lose sight of the care and requirements of the animal itself and representing them properly(i.e. minimum inbreeding and making it perfectly clear to the buyer that it is in fact a hybrid). And also, is how prevelant the pure animals are (I know my wife mentioned it in her last post but it really does need to be reiterated as much as possible), just look at diamond pythons and indian pythons, they are very scarce and if you find one, you have to look at how reputable the dealer is because you really have to wonder if it is truely pure blooded. Hell, you even have to second guess when buying jungle carpets nowadays, it just doesn't seem right to me. People who want hybrids are fine as long as they interbreed commonly available animals and market them as hybrids, but it's when these rules are broken that (in my opinion) there's a problem.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Just my luck, a colon right next to a parenthese it makes an accursed smilies.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Actually, you're partially right about the Irish Elk.. What you didn't get into was the fact that the climate around them was changing. Going from less open grassland to more dense forested areas. So a 12 foot span of antlets was a detriment to walking among trees... but the desire to breed with the male with the largest set of antlers was drilled into the Irish Elk and so it was a contest between Environment and Sex.. unfortunately sex won as it most usually will because the demand to reproduce is always higher than the demand to adapt.

As for Reptile hybrids... The other thing we need to consider is the fact that, for some species, it may be the only way for that gene pool to survive. Take the rarest reptile in the world, A Pinta Island tortoise (Geochelone elephantopus abingdoni). It is a male known by his keepers as Lonesome George. And when he dies the Pinta tortoises will be extinct. There are no more of them... this is sort of moot since George can't reproduce now.. but still... hybridizing him with some other, closely related tortoise may have saved that bloodline. It might not have been pure ever again... but at least it wouldn't be entirely lost either. I see nothing wrong with captive animals being hybridized... Though, in the cases of rare species that do have enough of a gene pool to be properly reproduced...I would be against it. However, with more common species...especially if its done for temperment changes or size changes, then I would ask why not? I know all about the arguements that they may potentially escape etc.. but look at whats already escaped and thriving in certain areas. Nile Monitors in Florida.. Spectacled and Black Caiman there also.. Spectacled Caiman in Pennsylvania.. Not to mention hosts of other species all over. I can see the arguement with the venemous species due to combinations of venoms (as is being seen with the Mojave and Southern Pacific I believe it is, naturally integrading)... but non-venemous I just can't see saying its a horrible or bad thing to do.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith) and 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

That is news to me!!!!

All those cat/cat dog/dog hybrids and interracial marriages are within species, even all are within subspecies "crosses".

With respect to herps you are talking about interspecies crosses.

While these can without doubt bring out extremely beautiful animals, they also produce animals suffering frome results of genetic inkompatibility.
These can be metabolic problems, immune problems, malformations and malfunctions of inner organs and a lot more.
You do hardly see such animals on the market, because they are sorted out-but by far not all crosses do only produce healthy hybrids.
Also behavioural problems appear: Which habitat preferences and needs will a hybrid have whose two parents differ a lot with respect to these aspects?
It may be easy to keep such animals alive-but much less easy to fully fulfill their needs which you can´t even estimate.
Thios guys who keep their snakes in semisterile tiny rack systems may not care-but IMHO a herps cage should resemble its habitat as closely as possible, should be spacey and naturalisitcally furnished.
But what does this mean for a hybrid, the preferences of which are unknown?
Also hybrids do often have problems with intraspecific (whatever that is in that case) communication, agression, mating etc etc.
Last not least venomous hybrids may come up with a venom which is much more dangerous than that of each parent-and chances are high that no serum is effective.

The bare wish to have nicely coloured specimens IMHO does by far not justify the risk to produce suffering animals (of course there ARE healthy and robust hybrids, but the risk is high...).

Also the production of colourful snakes very often needs to overemphasis of the business aspect of herping and ends up with even more people keeping snakes in drawers and shoebox like things instead of providing big naturalistically furnished tanks.

And last not least: There are a lot of sufficiently colourful pure species ou there which show fascinating behaviour and knowen needs.

so with all understanding of the challenge of extreme colours I do not find any serious vindication for the production of hybrids unless for scientific taxonomic analysis.

Thats my 2 cts-and as a biologist, I have done my homework concerning the health risks of hybridization!

Ci@o

Ingo

>All those cat/cat dog/dog hybrids and interracial marriages are
>within species, even all are within subspecies "crosses".

Not all of them. You can now buy short tailed kitties with bobcat or lynx ancestry. I haven't seen any coydogs offered for sale but it is not hard to produce them. Wolfdogs are pretty common, though of course, the dog is currently classified as a subspecies of wolf.

>With respect to herps you are talking about interspecies crosses.

Even intergeneric crosses with fertile offspring.

>While these can without doubt bring out extremely beautiful
>animals, they also produce animals suffering frome results of
> genetic inkompatibility. These can be metabolic problems,
>immune problems, malformations and malfunctions of inner organs
>and a lot more. You do hardly see such animals on the market,
>because they are sorted out-but by far not all crosses do only
>produce healthy hybrids.

>Also behavioural problems appear: Which habitat preferences and
>needs will a hybrid have whose two parents differ a lot with
>respect to these aspects?

The same problems occurred in the production of beefalo. Of course all the poor quality animals were sent to the slaughterhouse and only the better ones were kept as breeding stock. It took probably about half a century to make a breed competitive with herfords and angus.

People don't generally eat baby snakes, of course, but other snakes do. I have about 20 Iowa ratsnake X Everglades ratsnake
babies. I don't intend to sell any of them. Except for 2 males and 3 females I will be keeping to interbreed for an F2, they'll go to feed my blue racer. If I'm lucky, some of the F2 will be beautiful orange with black splotches and no stripes. Anything that does not look marketable will be snake food.

>It may be easy to keep such animals alive-but much less easy to
>fully fulfill their needs which you can´t even estimate.
>Thios guys who keep their snakes in semisterile tiny rack
>systems may not care-but IMHO a herps cage should resemble its
>habitat as closely as possible, should be spacey and naturalisitcally furnished. But what does this mean for a
>hybrid, the preferences of which are unknown?

Which is why people should be breeding with the intention of producing fully domesticated animals that are comfortable in a variety of environments, preferably one that will eat processed food so that people who are squeamish about feeding them animals will be willing to keep them as pets.

>Also hybrids do often have problems with intraspecific
>whatever that is in that case) communication, agression,
>mating etc etc.

Um, those are the same problems wild snakes have. One of my friends was foolish enough to put a boa in the same cage with a much smaller eastern king. Oops, one dead boa.

>Last not least venomous hybrids may come up with a venom which
>is much more dangerous than that of each parent-and chances are
>high that no serum is effective.

There you have a point. You don't have to worry about me doing that. Poisonous snakes scare the bejesus out of me.

>The bare wish to have nicely coloured specimens IMHO does by
>far not justify the risk to produce suffering animals (of >course there ARE healthy and robust hybrids, but the risk is high...).

In any plant/animal breeding operation, one simply is not going to get all high quality products even when breeding within species. The inferior organisms are culled. At least culled snakes can be used towards reducing operating costs. What do you do with a unsalable great dane pup with hip dysplasia?

>Also the production of colourful snakes very often needs to
>overemphasis of the business aspect of herping and ends up with
>even more people keeping snakes in drawers and shoebox like
>things instead of providing big naturalistically furnished tanks.

That's where we need to breed snakes of sufficiently high market value that only the more serious pet owner will buy them.

>And last not least: There are a lot of sufficiently colourful
>pure species ou there which show fascinating behaviour and knowen needs.

There certainly are. And people who raise those species for sale should a) be capable of providing pedigrees to prospective buyers so as to ensure the animal bought is a pure species, and b) provide husbandry info. A blue racer, for instance, can live a long life in captivity but will most likely die if the owner does know know its specific needs.

>so with all understanding of the challenge of extreme colours I
>do not find any serious vindication for the production of
>hybrids unless for scientific taxonomic analysis.

There certainly is a lot of information that would be useful in understanding genetic mechanisms and evolution.

Thats my 2 cts-and as a biologist, I have done my homework concerning the health risks of hybridization!

Have you done your homework concerning the health risks of inbreeding pure species?

Bigfoot

OK so now we have supposed biologists telling us of the health problems. Low infetility? Humans as a "pure" species suffer this quite a lot. Are they inbred? Likely not but more of a genetic defect that can show up at the roll of the dice. I know that if you are a biologist that you can infact agree that all species can suffer from any defect that a hybrid can. It is just as dangerous to "line breed" snakes for certain traits as it doubles or quadruples the "bad" genes as well as the good ones. It is purely ridiculous to speculate on hybrids being kept alive in a rack system as most of us who breed sell our offspring to the end customer. I would think that most people cannot recreate the natural ecosystem that a particular snake would encounter in the wild and if you did it wouldnt be very fun for that matter as you would likely never see it. Basic requirements for life are simple and that is all most of us need to survive. I live in a nice house and drive a nice truck. I have a nice t.v. Does that mean if I had to live in a tent I would suffer? Not as nature would see it. I would survive, just not up to my expectations.

The snake being kept has few serious requirements. Climate, shelter and food. In the wild it has to search out these three requirements continuosly so the zoo that keeps one is no different that the new kid at the show who is educated enough to fulfill the basics.

Lastly, why we should band together and standardize our hybrids(not saying everyone should do the same stuff but coin names for hybrids that represent them as a standard)so people will know them as such. I think the biggest problem here is valid due to the unscrupulous people who might have a jungle corn in the line not too many generations ago that has an aberrant patterned corn for sale as a corn snake. However a corn with king in it from 30 generations ago could be considered pure again as the amount of king in it would be negligable.

Cheer up little camper, hybrids are here to stay and all we can do is try to do the best we can in every aspect of them!

Comparisons may be made with line bred reptiles that arent sufficiently outcrossed to AKC dogs, that althought they are 100% Dog(Canine) they are so inbred that they have genetic problems INHERENT within EACH "Breed Type". Each breed has its own special problems associated with line and inbreeding. Period. Conformation to standards that are visibly pleasing to us as humans often lend themselves to "Fixing" other traits that are TOTALLY undesirable, ie; hip dysplasia, deafness, endetropin, etc etc etc. I believe that the same thing can apply in snake lines that arent sufficiently outcrossed to insure gentic vigor.

Fred Albury

n/p
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

I've heard so far...

1. It isn't natural

2. Hybrids could escape into the wild and contaminate wild populations.

3. Untrustworthy breeders may sell hybrids as pure species and therefore contaminate captive populations of otherwise pure species

4. Hybrids are sterile

My replies:

1. Natural would be if a snake were capable to roam free in the wild, eats when it pleases, choose it's own habitat, and temperature and live and breed exactly how it prefers according to it's circumstances provided by nature...as soon as you put a snake in a fish tank, rack system, vivarium, etc You are taking it our of it's natural environment. Keeping a snake as a pet, for breeding stock to make money, to educate people etc Is not natural. Instead of the snake having a choice, we choose when it feeds, what temperature, what area of space it will live, and what it will breed to.

For a snake to be truly pure bred in captivity, one must breed it with another from the same locality as each population in the wild across it's range has a different genetic makeup. For example a cornsnake from the Miami area of Florida expresses different traits to those that are found in Okeetee region of South Carolina if we were to breed these together yes we would still have a cornsnake but it would not be true to it's own unique population we have genetically changed it, in the wild Miami hatchlings have a preference for small lizards whereas Okeete cornsnakes preference is for rodents other differences are colour and size of individuals, these are all determined by the genetic makeup of the snake. Even if we were to breed animals from the same locality together, more than likely when choosing animals to add to our collection, we would choose those that expressed the most desirable traits. eg: bright colours, well defined pattern, healthy and robust etc.By doing so we are determining who breeds with who and choosing what traits of the animal we want their babies to express.

Basically the hybrid snakes being bred are designer snakes. They are pets. Produced for the purpose of beauty and amazement of people. Basically all of the snakes captive bred are man-made, just as hybrids are. Without selective breeding operations you'd never find the morphs we do today. So why is breeding a hybrid a bad thing??? We'd only be creating another snake with unique looks.

2. This is certainly true, but the same could be said for any escapee snake, the chances of a hybrid snake surviving in the wild in our country (Canada) is very slim, and then to breed with one of our native snakes and produce young, highly unlikely. Even escapees in countries, provinces, and states where the conditions are right for them they would probably perish and die before reproducing as there immune system would not be sufficient to survive. Captive bred snakes especially do not have strong immune systems.

3. If you buy a snake that is not what it is supposed to be, that's just too bad. I know that if I were to breed hybrid snakes I would NEVER pass them off as something else. When buying any snake you should buy from a trusted source. I think I'd be more worried about buying healthy stock than buying a "mutt". Any breeder could get away with selling you unheathly stock as easily as someone could sell you a hybrid as a pure bred. Either way, buying from a trusted source is the key.

4. All the hybrids can be infertile but some show higher fertility than some normal snakes. So really you'd best check your breeding stock. More fertility problems have been seen in snakes that have been inbred than with hybrids. A lot of hybrids are stronger more robust than there parents, this is known as hybrid vigor, the passing of good traits from both parents gives the snake a survival boost. Evolution is based primarily on changes in gene frequencies, resulting (among other processes) from mutation, reproductive isolation, and recombination of genes through hybridization.

I hope this has strengthened my point. Either way, I don't think I'll change anyone's mind. But I see no danger in producing or selling hybrids as long as that is what you sell them as...if anyone has anymore valid points I'd love to hear them...Also, I realize some of my previous statement were quite off base...Ha, just trying to say some stuff to hear some reactions...thanks.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.4.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas

if anyone can come up with a valid argument against that post i will be amazed.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

"There are six genes which determine the amount of melanism present in a person's skink"-meretseger

Is that all dogs are the same species. Just different races. In my opinion, I don't think your post did much nor is it going to do much. It is not just a few people on the Pituophis forum. It is pretty much all of them, me included. All you are going to do is start a flame war over there. After all, almost all you posted was just opinion anyway. Some people may see these new snakes as a great "extension" to the hobby, but others do not see it in the same way. You should at least respect other peoples' opinions. You aren't going to change the people on that forum, and they apparently are not going to change you. So leave it at that.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Now that I have read most of the replies and realize there are completely stupid and ignorant ideas coming from folks on both sides of the issue, I have decided to refrain from comment on this issue. I will be wasting time in a different forum, but a word: You guys need to quit trying to make yourselves right! If someone disagrees with you, work together and try to find the REAL answer to the question, not win the argument. Most of the replies (on both sides) were filled with regurgitated ideas and information you guys picked up from other threads! This forum makes me sick!

n/p
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com