Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I notice a lot of seemingly beginning keepers are into breeding their Chameleons. I am curious as to what happens after breeding, when the keeper now has a large group of babies on their hands. Are the babies sold to pet stores? Kept as new pets? Dumped? Shipped out all over the country? When does the casual keeper make the switch to professional breeder? Do they really, or are they just breeding their pets simply because they CAN?

Is it ethical to breed them simply because one can? Are people not really thinking about what exactly they will do with a bunch of baby Chams?
Am I missing something?

Are average people that are breeding their Chams actually doing the right thing which is NOT just dumping them off to pet stores or the woods behind their house? Not to mention possibly screwing up the domestic Chameleon gene pool.

I would hope that people are actually thinking about the wellfare of the babies they will end up having BEFORE they decide to get a breeding pair of adults.

I have one male Jackson's. He is my pet. I would love to get him a mate and breed them. However, I realize that if I do this, I will have up to 50 babies on my hands, several times. Not only is that a big challenge as far as rearing, but what the hell would I do with them?!?!? I can't just hope I can sell them to anyone or any pet store that will buy them. What if I can't sell them? I don't have the time or the know-how yet to become a formal "breeder", shipping them all over the place.

I'm not talking to the big breeders here, who have racks of cages and giant enclosures and shipping expertise and a webs site. I'm asking the people with a cage in the corner of their bedroom or living room - the average keeper who has a breeding pair of Veiled or other Chameleons: What in the heck do you DO with all of the babies?

Just curious!

thanks

Glad you brought this up - I will be curious to see replies. Although I agreed not to breed Luna b/c of her size I have no interest in doing it for all the reasons you stated - time and $$. Good for you to consdier this before just doing it b/c, as you say, you simply CAN.

lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

I know how you feel!!! I have had my male veiled since he was about 5 1/2 inches long and I am getting 2 females on tuesday or wednsday (I was supposed to get them today but it snowed heavily, again...hurray for Canadian weather...). I am very excited about breeding them and I do have some idea as to how to get rid of them, but I am still worried about the amount of work it will take.
Living in Canada I have my work cut out for me, the extreme weather is hard on the humidity and temperature of my room, i need to keep a sharp eye on their environments. Luckally the babies like it cooler! There is nowhere near as much demand for chameleon in Canada as there is in the states, but then again, there are only a small handful of "professional" breeders, and just as many small-time ones.
As far as I know about selling your chameleons (other more experienced breeders please correct me or add to my info) you just need to use common sense in who you sell them to. Example: you want to sell to a local pet store, but they keep them 10 to a glass tank with a water bowl and fake plants, would you sell to them? no! It's common sense. Another example would be if you wanted to sell wholesale to Scales, you could ask for informaiton from other breeders with experience selling to them.

Overall, just use common sense and ask other breeders about certain stores, retailers etc.

Good luck breeding your guy and hopefully others will post answers to add to my infor or correct it.

Yeah, good points. But I really don't want to breed my guy. I just wouldn't feel right about it unless I could ensure the wellfare of the babies produced.
As of now, I have no idea what I would do with them, so I choose not to breed. I think people should breed Chameleons for better reasons than the fact that it's "fun". There are little lives here at stake, and people have to be responsible
and ethical. I'll leave the breeding to the professionals.

Out of curiosity, are there places (wholesellers) that buy private breeders' babies, and if so, who are they? And, do they ALWAYS buy them, without exception? I mean, what if they get overstocked with babies and won't buy yours? Then you're screwed. And so are the babies.

I really want to breed a chameleon, just once.
First you need to do a lot of research though. Visit ALL of the pet stores in your area, and see if any are equipped and capeable of keeping chameleons. i'm pretty lucky, there are a few around here that treat their animals really well. But, i'm also in Canada, and there is a much different demand for reptiles in the states I think.
I wanted to breed because I am completely curious about it. I love animals, and I really want to work with them either as a professional breeder (at some point WAY down the road) or as a vet, or a zookeeper, or in any other way (or all of them! lol). It would be a huge learning experience for me. I beleive that hands on learning is definately the way to go. That being said, there is a LOT to learn about chams before even thinking about breeding them. I would keep them for a few years first. I had mine for a year before I bred her, and her eggs didnt make it. Long story... BUT I would suggest anyone thinking about it wiats a few years before trying. I learned that from the whole experience.

Chimbakka where are you in Canada? I live in Halifax. I also have about 2 pet stores (one of them is a chain with 3 locations near me) that have the ability to house a chameleon well. I bought my cham from a store and he has never had any problems at all with his health...so far.

I agree completely with the learning experience! I do not, like you, want to follow a career in animals but am fascinated by them and love them dearly. I think I can handle the responsibilities of breeding chameleons once or twice for the learning experience, and like someone else said, to break even with a year or so of keeping the adults. I am known to be a very responsible person and think I can handle it, and I also have several contacts to whom I can ask any questions.

jacksonsrule, it is really up to you wether or not you want to breed. When you say that every chameleon buyer won't be a wonderful keeper, you are right. But, even professional breeders have to deal with that, except that they put even more chameleons into irresponsible hands than a private breeder. The only thing you can do to avoid that: educate the buyer like crazy and even quiz them before you sell to them!

I live near Toronto, Ont. There are a few crappy pet stores, but most of them aren't that bad. And the big chains here seem a lot better than some of the big chains I've heard of in the states.
Hurray for Canada!

Personally I worry about how many "casual" hobbyists assume they will breed their animals. Most do not give thought to the problems...the risks to their females who may not be getting adequate care and end up in trouble, the realities of dealing with lots of tiny delicate babies, their fate in the hands of anyone else who shows up to buy them. Why is it considered part of herp keeping to breed? This isn't just confined to chams...go on any animal forum and you'll hear the same thing. Some people feel they have not arrived in the experienced keeper category if they haven't bred something. Is it bragging rights? Are the animals only fulfilling their keeper's wants by producing cute little babies? Attempts to recoup the cost of keeping the adults? Probably all of the above.

I've kept various reptiles and birds for years and only attempted breeding once (well, the chams decided to on their own). I enjoy my adults for themselves, and as I am not part of a focused breeding program for any obscure or threatened species see no reason to risk their health, my ability to house and care for them, or to expose offspring to poor care and neglect in future. Don't assume there are experienced and well intentioned buyers just waiting in line for what you produce. I wouldn't give anything of mine to most people I know let alone complete strangers.

I'm sure everyone starts out a little differently. But those that succeed probably have at least one thing in common, which is a passion for the hobby.

I don't believe that people breed chameleons because "they can", or because its "fun". At least if they intend to do it properly. Taking everything into consideration, there is just too much work and effort involved to justify doing it for fun. It might be easy to place a female into a males cage and wait for them to copulate. But then there is the constant attention that females require for both their health and a viable clutch. Then there comes the stress that accompanies problems and complications. Not just stress on the animals, but stress on the breeder. There are alot of other things I probably did not mention. But its my opinion that a passion for the hobby is a requirment.

If an individual meets this requirement, I would not discourage them from breeding chameleons at all. Chances are, they'll also have an understanding of how to sell them as well. And alot of people do start out with that little cage in the corner of the room.

for example whatever i breed i normally only set the amount of eggs i know i can sell and that will pay for the bredders themselves.
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soad rocks

soad does rock!!!

sorry to stray from the subject...

I agree that passion drives a herp hobbiest to allocate the needed time, knowledge and resources to successfully keep and breed anything. I certainly have passion for keeping my pet, and I would imagine most people on this forum have a very strong passion as well. We all now Chams require quite a bit of attention!

Yet there are those who buy Chams on a whim and neglect the animals needs and attention to husbandry, who also feel the need to breed them. Or, they get excited after mild success with one Veiled and feel the need to breed it and eventually end up with a crop off eggs on their hands, then babies, and haven't quite given enough thought to what they will do with them all. These are the people I was addressing.

I guess there is a fundamental principle here, and that is being accountable for your actions. People should keep and breed these animals responsibly, period. I fear that there are people out there that don't, but what can I say? I IN NO WAY was accusing anyone on this forum of being irresponsible. I have gathered from readinjg this forum that there are some very caring, responsible, knowledgable people breeding or even just keeping Chams out there. It's just slightly disturbing to think that there are people out there, however, with limited knowledge that are breeding Chams out of sheer spectacle and don't have the foresight to realize what they are getting into, ultimatley resulting in many babies being discarded. That's not good for the Chameleons, or the Industry, or the market, or science, or anything.

I would love to breed Chams one day. But until I have gained the knowledge and experience, and resources, I don't feel the need to. But, it's a free country,
so what can I say? Anyone is free to breed them all they want, keep the babies, throw them in the trash, let them go in the park, sell them responsibly, sell them irresponsibly, whatever. I just have a love for the animals and long to see everyone be responsible about them. They are not toys. I hope you all agree.

Anyway, I knew this would get everyone going. Thanks for the intelligent opinions and insight from all of you. I think we're all on the same page.

thanks!

I'm lucky enough to have herp shows several times a month in my area. I will be breeding my jacks in a few months. If they don't sell, I'll have a few more jacks.