Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The Coast HLs are making a good showing. At 3 study sites, in the past 4 days, a total of 67 have been logged. 17 are first year HLs. They are not highly active and are still in a hibernation stupor. The ants, 9 different kinds so far, are semiactive. Some of the burn sites are showing good recovery with many flowering plants having high densities. Some areas show very slow recovery due to the impact of nonnative grasses and higher burning temps that may have sterilized some patch areas. The chamise, buckwheat and sage are making a good showing.

The HLs will become more active once the night temps are at 50 degrees and warmer. Several areas will need PVAs done to establish baseline for recovery monitoring. The demographics, so far, are pointing to a good year for the HLs. Will just have to wait and see. The above normal temps may cause some problems with male/female ratios in egg development at nesting sites, once the HLs mate and nest. That will be closely monitored this year. May be radio tracking HLs this year to compare HRs in the burn recovery areas to see how the fires have altered this activity. A high percentage of ant nests are intact, even with the fire damage.

That is my update. Best to all.

Lester G. Milroy III

Hello Lester,
I just wanted to congratulate you on your appearence in the Daily Press, on Tuesday. Its really neat to see the
CHLs plight being put into the newspaper to help the public awareness, so in that regard, thanks also. Its good to hear
that some of your CHLs are out and about. Is this an increase in pop. from last year, a decrease, or is it about right?
I'd be interested to learn about that. I had one other question. When you say hibernation stupor, do you mean an over
-all sluggishness of the animal, or is it that they won't move at all? I'd also be interested to learn that. Thanks again
for making the public aware of our horned lizards plight.

Yours,
Phil

Link to Lesters article
-----
Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

I have a few serious disagreements with the article. Not enough emphasis was put towards development being the cause for HL decline.

The HLs in CA have been protected from collection for the Pet Trade for decades. It is NOT a factor in their decline in CA. The few that may be taken illegally will not decimate populations. Development decimates populations. I have searched, for over 10 years, over the web, magazine ads, and herp shows and have never found an illegal HL for sale.

Blaming offroad vehicles is also another scapegoat for development. If what is said about the non native grasses choking out the ants and limiting HL movement than wouldn't the offroad trails be beneficial? Offroad vehicles have been heavily treading Ocotillo Wells for over 50 years. I search most of the CA mcalli habitat every year and have found Ocotillo Wells to have the highest density of mcalli (agreeing with Turner and Medica). Why is this, if offroad vehicles decimate populations?

Listing a HL as Federally Endangered will NOT save the HLs. I witnessed first hand here in the Coachella Valley what a joke the listing is. The Coachella Valley Fringe Toad Lizard has been listed as Federally Endangered for over 20 years yet in the last few years I have seen the most chaotic rampant building I have ever seen right over its habitat. Now they are going right up to the preserve borders. The preserves saved the lizard. The listing generates more funding for scientific studies but it doesn't take a degree to look out your vehicle window to figure out populations are declining. WE KNOW HL POPULATIONS ARE DECLINING. If the government and conservationists were truly concerned about the HLs they would work with groups like the Nature Conservancy to purchase land and setup HL preserves. PROTECT THE HABITAT. Don't cover up your own guilt by blaming a selected few. You travel on roads, you live in a house, you shop, you buy vegetables grown in CA, you are also part of the problem.

You make some good points Jeff.

It was an interesting article but there were a couple of things in it I thought were pretty misleading too.

"Agriculture and development are major problems because the herbicides kill the ants' buckwheat, sage and bunchgrasses, and pesticides kill the ants," Milroy said. "Poachers like them — in the pet trade, horned lizards have a nice price tag. People collect them because they think they make neat pets."

This sentence about "poachers" being tied right into the pet trade line makes it look like all HL's in the pet trade are there because of poachers, which is bogus. (and they do make neat pets if cared for properly!

This is the other line that bugs me: "Horned lizards are a California species of special concern, said Dale Steele of the state Department of Fish and Game. As such, they are acknowledged to be declining in numbers but don't enjoy protection under the federal Endangered Species Act."

This makes it sound like all California Species are listed as "sepcial concern" species, which is not true.

DHL habitat (and species) is not nearly as threatened as the CHL or Mcalli.

Seems like it's all about grant money and politics vs development... What can you do?

Preserves are probably the best way to go as you suggested but people need a place to live too.
(Don't develope anymore, now that I have my house and half acre on HL habitat). I can't feel comfortable saying that.

We have to keep some kind of sanity for humans and wildlife.
It's just a tough call.

It would be interesting to hear other opinions!
-----
Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

I agree with you. I know you have done a bunch of searching, Have you ever found mcalli or coronatum for sale? I have only found modestum and platyrhinos for sale in the U.S. and I have searched everywhere. The pet trade is not a factor in HL decline in CA, I gurantee it.

I know we need places to live and shop but the problem is much segemented non developed areas are all over in CA cities. The preserves need to be strongholds connecting populations with our national monuments and national forests. Have you checked out the Rangewide Stradegy for mcalli? This is exactly what needs to happen. Management areas and preserves throughout the HLs range here is the Link. Left click save as, because it's big.
FTHL Mangement

Unfortunately I wasn't able to download the file you posted.

I have searched far and wide on the internet and have only found Shorthorns, platyrhinos and modestum.
I have asked in every petstore I go into about them, and with one exception I am always told "Horny toads are endangered and can't be sold as pets." The one exception had modestum for sale (they are now out of business for unrelated reasons.) I didn't know enough back then to ask about their recommendations for care.
I am sure there are probably some isolated cases where a petshop or herp show will have a protected species for sale but it surely isn’t rampant.

Overall, my take is that there is a ton of misinformation and confusion out there, and there are folks, both knowledgeable and ignorant of HL's, perpetuating the confusion for one reason or another. You'll often see on this board that "Special Permits" are required for HL capture. While this my be true in some cases, in most cases (as you well know) this amounts to a hunting or fishing license. Not exactly what I'd call a special permit.

I also agree that preserves are the way to go, as well as protecting our existing forest and other park areas. Adding preserves to these seems like a very great way to extend ranges for threatened species. Protecting these from non-native species should also be high on the list.
-----
Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

I grew up in Utah and don't have an inkling about the HL population in Cal, but I do remember seeing full grown HL's (as opposed to seeing none nowadays) and more of them about 20 years ago. There they have the most problem from parents letting their kids take one home, also ongoing droughts and fires I'm sure don't help much either. But the biggest disagreement I have is that I've lived in or near HL habitat for my whole life and never once did I see a harvester ant until I got my pet "Horny".

Hi PC.
I am not sure what you mean by this: "But the biggest disagreement I have is that I've lived in or near HL habitat for my whole life and never once did I see a harvester ant until I got my pet "Horny"."

Could you clarify?
Thanks
-----
Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

Thanks Phil. This year should show an increase in populations because of the increase in resources. There is typically a year lag in population increases in undisturbed habitats, and disturbed habitat too, for HLs, and many other species also. It is really hard to say at this time if this is below, at, or above "normal." Once the season progress, I will have better data to project population dynamics.

The hibernation stupor is just sluggishness from just waking up from hibernation. The HLs are active. They are not as active as they will be when their hormones really "kick-in" once they are subjected to more stable temps.

The article was a little short one some information presented to the interviewer, and some was not accurate as presented. There was a lot of information discussed and questions answered. There were some discrepencies in the final translation, but over all the information is out.

There are comments from some who do not have a clue about the conservation/ecological issues concerning HLs, or any other species as far as that goes. The comments from some also show a lack of experience with news reporting. Instead of asking for clarificaton, they jump on points of the article that were/are misquoted or misunderstood by the writer. Oh well. I have received a lot of email and calls about the article and providing an aid to answering questions concerning HLs and conservation. There will probably be a follow-up soon. Thanks again.

Lester G. Milroy III

Their are some who will not debate the issues but simply attack the person raising the points. I am a HL enthusiast and am not motivated by self importance, funding, and power trips. I care what is best for the HLs as well as individual rights as people. The quotes in the article are things you have said before right on this forum and believe me I did write the person who wrote the article. I do not ride dirtbikes and have never been involved in the pet trade but the kindergarten antics of continually placing blame on the petrade and offroad vehicles is too much for me to take. Taking away individual rights is not going to solve anything. Protecting habitat is. In a past phone conversation I asked you why you continually push for a Federally Threatened Status, you said when an animal is elevated to the status more funding is provided for you to conduct your studies. I know where your motivations lye. The CHL is not threatened with extinction, in addition to our national parks, forests and monuments it can be found in areas around San Diego, Julian, Anza, San Jacinto Mt., Moreno Valley, Riverside, Rancho Cucamunga, Oak Glenn, Cherry Valley, Banning, Beaumont, Yucca Valley, Pioneer town, Big Bear, and that’s stopping before I get to your neck of the woods. Do you study the populations in all these areas to make the decision to list them as Threatened with extinction? Are all these populations going to perish? We do need to protect as much habitat as possible but the CHL is not threatened with extinction, look up the meaning in the dictionary. I know many who have prodded you for support by trying to get Horned Lizard Conservation Meetings going, save HLs from the bulldozer, tag along with you on your research to further educate and understand your methods all with negative response. If you consider yourself as a person who has " a clue about the conservation/ecological issues concerning HLs, or any other species as far as that goes." You are sadly mistaken.

Jeff, you never cease to amaze me with you rantings.

I have for years promoted habitat protection and preservation of open space to protect HL habitats and MSCPs. You continually fail to show that you read the literature or any publications that identify the multitude of reasons (verifiable) for species declines, HLs included. The journals, the research documents, and media of all kinds continually present such information.

I have never made a statement to you, or anyone else, that protection as a listed species provides me with money for research. That is a fabrication of your own and I resent that, and it had better stop now.

If the CHLs are not having problems, why is it identified as a "Species of Special Concern" (State and Federal) and why is it the only HL listed under CITES? I do not place the blame of HL declines on just ORVs and the pet trade. There are multiple reasons for decline, both natural and human induced. These are identified in research by Muth, Hagar, McGurty, Bauer, Sherbrooke, Smith, Klauber, Lynn, Milne, Goldberg, Case, Suarez, Dodd, Seigel, Wone, and the list goes on.

My comments to you about receiving a Threatened status was that it makes local goverments accountable for habitat protection and conservation. It makes EIRs a necessity in proposed developments in areas where habitat is critical. I receive no pay for my work at my study sites. I provide a continuous line of data for reserve managers to use to provide the optimal protection for HLs. I provide data to the agencies, whose duties are to protect wildlife and natural resources. If I do EIRs for areas of proposed development, I am paid for my expertise and work to do the surveys as a Conservation Biologist, period.

I have data sets from a lot of the areas you mentioned, but what is your point? There are a lot of areas that the populations of CHLs are extinct. So, yes the HLs are threatened with extinction. Local population extinction is a fact, like it or not! The historical records are full of local population extinctions due to habitat loss/destruction. Of 837 historical records I have reviewed, only 218 sites remain. I have aerial photos and onsite surveys to verify that losses.

As for your citing the dictionary, get real Jeff. I am well aware of the definitions. Find something to discuss, not some stupid ploy.

I see damage to habitats all of the time due to some who do not obey laws. So, yes offroad folks are part of the problem. At several study sites, protected reserves, I have found CHLs run over by ORVs. Folks that breach posted boundries do not have rights to do so. So get off the bandwagon. There are many areas that are designated ORV sites and that is where they can stay. Not all public land is set aside for ORVs and that is that.

I have put out calls for field assistants several times, in the newsletter. Did you respond? No. So find something else to complain about. You have trouble getting permits? Is that my fault? No. You are not providing or meeting requirements from the issuing authority. So stop blaming me for your shortfall.

When you find out what Conservation Biology and Environmental Sciences are and what work needs to be done and are doing that work, then you can critcize or publish such disagreement with verifiable research and observations. I do know the problems HLs have and have documentation to back what I present.

Lester G. Milroy III

Thank you for your well written response Lester, now perhaps we can discuss issues instead of insult one another's intelligence. I do read the literature. I have spent over $800 on purchasing HL articles and have read articles by all the authors you cited.

I am well aware of the threats to the CHL. The CHL was protected under CITES, sometime in the 50s because of the curio trade. It was designated a species of Special Concern in the 80s because of habitat loss. The reason I rant about placing the blame on the pet trade and ORVs is because I feel it is actually doing harm in protection of the HLs. It takes the focus off the real threats such as habitat loss and threats by invasive non native species. When people read the article many will feel it is necessary to pass legislation against pet owners and ORVs. Why stop there? Go to all reptiles, than fish, than birds, than hamsters, than cats, than dogs and so on. Don't just take away ORVs go to the gas guzzling SUVs. Yes there are areas designated for ORVs and the HLs are still there. You have probably driven the offroad trails looking for HLs. Most realize the threat from a distance and run for cover. I have never observed a HL to stand still and be ran over. They are very alert. All the preserves I've been to have a barb wire fence around them so how are the ORVs getting in there? In real actuality, in my findings at OWSVP I have found more dead from transmitters getting caught up than killed by ORVs. Should I go around saying scientists are killing off the HLs at a faster rate than ORVs? Of course not. In addition to all the papers I have read with the exception of yours I do not find the CHL to be threatened with extinction. It is found in many national forests, state parks, and preserves and theoretically will never become extinct. Of course populations are declining do to development and fire ants. Destroying non native species should be a focus. I would gladly drive around poisoning fire ants and shooting ravens, stray dogs and cats as well as clear out destructive non native grasses but I'd probably end up in jail. In my opinion more land should be set aside for native CA wildlife to further insure survival of our native species and that should be the focus.

If passing more legislation actually worked I would be all for it. You are probably getting sick of hearing about it but you really should check out the disaster in the Coachella Valley (I'm sure it’s the same in all major CA cities though). How come the federal listings and local government accountability hasn't worked here. The judge is always going to decide in the best interest and well being of the city (in other words money). In almost all the hearings I read about they rule in favor of the developers not the lizards. The average person doesn't care about lizards, they care about schools, golf courses, shopping malls and housing.

I would have really liked to have seen this in the article "The historical records are full of local population extinctions due to habitat loss/destruction. Of 837 historical records I have reviewed, only 218 sites remain. I have aerial photos and onsite surveys to verify that losses." This is very good. This would have put focus toward more habitat protection.

Why would I make up something you never said. Does a federal listing generate more funds for studies and require certain reports and surveys to be conducted or does it not? After reading your update in phrynosamatics, I did contact you with interest in assisting you with field work but didn't get a response. I do not blame you for F&G requiring your signature on my application. This year I have made contact with a very enthusiastic more than qualified person to back me so this is a past issue. I am however concerned with a nice population of HLs in an area planned for development. What can I do and others like me do to save them, being we are not qualified?

Hey Lester,
I hope not to offend you but want to throw some things out for discussion in the interest of us understanding each other and, by that understanding, better the environment for all of us.

I don't want to take you out of context so I'll quote you then comment.

Lester: "When you find out what Conservation Biology and Environmental Sciences are and what work needs to be done and are doing that work, then you can criticize or publish such disagreement with verifiable research and observations. I do know the problems HLs have and have documentation to back what I present."

By this do you mean that only those who are qualified conservation biologists working in the area of HL conservation are able to make valid observations and comments? I have to report that we do this all the time in religion, politics and other aspects of our day-to-day life. Why is the area of conservation biology somehow exempt from comment except by expert opinion? This is a chat forum and last I looked we are still in the USA. We all vote and our opinions matter. If they make no sense then quote the facts or ignore it, but don't just say "you are not qualified to speak."

Lester: "I have data sets from a lot of the areas you mentioned, but what is your point? There are a lot of areas that the populations of CHLs are extinct. So, yes the HLs are threatened with extinction. Local population extinction is a fact, like it or not! ... "

Local extinction does not amount to the species being threatened with extinction and I would be willing to bet you well know that. There are many species that no longer roam their historic range. That does not necessarily mean they are threatened with extinction or that they are even endangered. In the Angeles national forest (which is @650,000 acres) I have seen CHLs almost everywhere I have looked. Next to this land is a lot of BLM land and also other private land that will be a long time before it sees any development. The CHLs I have seen seem to be thriving just fine. Most of the places I go look for them are on or very near dirt roads, trails or firebreaks that see ORV's. I have yet to see a squished one and some of the best sites I have found for CHL's seem to be right at the intersections of these roads and trails. I would venture to guess that the Angeles Forest area alone is sufficient to enable the species to survive and prosper, given it's current condition remains stable. If you figure in all of the other national forest areas where CHLs range I just don't see how you can come up with an extinction scenario.

Truth, lies and statistics.
A hypothetical example of how statistics are often skewed:
If you consider 100% of the historical CHL range.
Then figure that say 50% of that range is private land, open to development. Then say that the private portion of land is developed over a 20 year period.
If that happens the CHL's are reduced to 50% - of their historical range.
Does that mean that in 20 more years they are likely to be down to 0% of their range? Not by any means. The other 50% is probably national forest; BLM land or other land set aside as a preserve and will be a good refuge for the CHL in perpetuity.

It is statistics like this that I have seen so often quoted to support some party or persons agenda. It sounds reasonable if presented without all the facts. But the facts above would be that the remaining 50% is not available for development and so would still remain a solid CHL habitat for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for taking the time to read.
All comments and opinions are welcome on this discussion board as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers!
-----
Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17