Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have seen posts regarding the diets of some asian monitors, most notably Gray's monitor as being impossible to duplicate in North America. While it is difficult, it is not impossible. Pandanas (screwpines)are considered to be a constitiuent of the Gray's monitors diet; several times I have seen mentioned that they do not grow in the US. This is false. At least 4 species do very well in Florida, from Tampa to Key West. I have collected fruit from at least 2 species. The fruit is very interesting and smells like a pina colada, however, it tastes nothng like a pina colada, it tastes BAD. If indeed Pandanas is a vital part of the Gray's monitor's diet, it is available in the US.

Many Asians living here in the states would be embarrased to hear someone say no one grows any of the Asian fruits (Phillipine). Langstat, duku, and santol, can be found, and a person serious about lizards could find them and grow them, or at the very least, drag themselves to the asian market and buy the frozen ones or the canned ones.

Trying is the only way to succeed.

Alan

Hello, First, it has not been shown, that any monitor species is restricted to a certain prey item/s. They all seem to be generalists, and include lots of different food items, including plant material and fruit. You would be very surprised how many species eat plant material.

There are many concepts and approaches about varanids, but if one was going to pick a truely specialized species, it surely would be one of the smaller species. like V.kingorum. This species, is so very enlongated, its to closest varanid to being legless. They also have very tiny heads. I have to wonder what they eat in nature. Huge teeth too, hmmmmmmmm?

What is odd to me is, in other groups of reptiles do people have such a concern with feeding natural foods. I wonder what all those pythons, boas, colubrids, geckos, etc, eat in nature.

One small observation, the keepers of the above groups are very successful at maintaining populations in captivity, yet that is rare for varanid keepers????????

I think what we should feed them is what allows them to thrive(in captivity).

Personally I believe its other areas of husbandry that are lacking and should be addressed before you go about picking fruit. Cheers FR

Firstly, this was a post in response to those who assume, because of a lack of success with various varanids, that the diet was not species specific enough. They had stated that because success had not been made manifest, it must be because the food items in question were not available. It was my goal to point out that this assumption is ignorant; at best and that the food was available.

My goal was not to argue whether or not this assumption was accurate (that pertaining to diet as the limiting factor to success), but to point out that uncommon foods (seasonal for most wild animals)could be had and thus the hypothosis could be tested, but as yet the argument is purely anecdotal.

Other aspects of husbandry are most likely to blame, and I believe these minor "elements of diet" play a tiny role at best.

No where in my previous post did I state that the assumed limiting factor to success was a reality, I attempted to imply only that it could be tested.

Alan

Why do you get all defensive when we agree? Your post did not say one way or the other. I guess I merely helped clarify what you were trying to say. Is that not a good thing????next time be a little more clear

What the heck do you think this is suppose to be? its about a continuing thread, of both agreeing and disagreeing. To add and subtract. A continuing dialog. Isn't it?

I am glad we agree.

Also, most people who attempt to keep rare reptiles should known how to find resources. Thats part of having needed experience. I hope we agree on this too.

By the way, what do you keep? Thanks and chill please, FR

This is chilled, you should see me really worked up. I keep crocodile monitors, "regular" and "papuan". So-called platinum monitors and tri-colors (the monitor, not the colubrid).

I also raise frogs, mostly Phyllomedusines, and a handful of snakes.

And tropical and sub-tropical fruit trees and palms. Which, to me, goes hand in hand with raising tropical and sub-tropical animals.

Alan

just curious, but what has all of this "keep it natural" stuff gotten you?

heck, i don't keep mine natural and mine have limited success, but i do have success.

lets say ackies for instance: i keep them on deep substrate (because they like to dig), i give them hot basking sites (because that is what they need to digest and thermoregulate), i offer them cool areas so they can get to them when needed, i offer them water to drink and food because they use that too.

i don't however think that having spinifex grass would help me have more success with ackies. that is your logic, tell me if i am wrong.

andrew

Hi Alan,

You're right, V. olivaceus, and most probably V. mabitang could adjust to other species of Pandanus and flora dietary menu items if kept in captivity (again). The Dallas Zoo kept V. olivaceus for awhile, but sadly they succumbed. As Dallas zoo reports in their 1999 Asian Forest Monitor Regional Studbook, pp23-26 wild animals feed on primarily fruit of Dracontomelum, Grewia, Spondias, Canarium, Pandanus, and Aglaia), molluscs and crabs; captive animals refused all commercially available fruits, although some fed on grapes and rodents. As V. olivaceus is a obligate omnivore, and feeds alot of flora, the minerals and nuturion from those kinds of flora are found in greater concentrations and in certain-chemical bonds that make digestion for this specialist more favoriable -- and that often leads to better reproduction rate...not all Varanus are specialists, only a few of the 70 or so. V. ornatus, V. albigularis, and V. niloticus are specialists, as their teeth are designed and alter to crush molluscs/shellfish prey items for the majority of their lives, and as these prey items are high in calcium and minerals not found in rodents (although they readily if not clumsily) accept them, "appear" to prefer such items...if you can accomodate your varanus, generalist or specialist, it makes their captivity a better experience don't you think? Thanks for posting about this - aka if there is a will, there is a way, and for the one private collector I know who has V olivaceus, I will certainly tell him about this...he has finicky V.olivaceus and has had trouble getting them to readily feed for awhile....and he has tried alot of things too.
cheers,
markb

mark, has anyone come up with a substitue yet for gray's? i just refuse to get any until there is something constant to feed them. i am told they need pandanus and another fruit in order to survive. its a good thing niles don't need molluscs, or kimberlys geckos, etc. in order to survive, mine would be dead.

lmk, andrew

NO Andrew, not to my knowledge - and if you talk to Daniel Bennett as I did in Feb 2004 talk here at Davis, we were in agreement, the habitat loss is the greatest detrimental aspect to their survival = no home habitat, no food, to life...

as for V. niloticus and especially V. ornatus, their WILD diet consists 75% of shellfish/crabs/fish throughout 10 of the 12 months of the year, and if you were to examine Vivian de Buffrenil's FIELD WORK of 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002- you would see that wild specimens live over 10 years in the wild, require high sources of calcium for egg/ova production and get it through their diet, which in time their teeth have been modified to feed almost exclusively of this diet; juveniles feed on insects and adults on aquatic molluscs/arthropods. Your rodent diet is sufficient for them, but in my book not recommended, and a more natural diet is - and when these animals do not recieve the calcium/mineral requirement they need, they take it from their own hind leg femur/tibia/fibia bones, hence in some captivie animals you see cripples, and this is most likely why. But do what you wish, its your animals, their life.

cheers,
markb

what kind of substrate do niles live on in the wild? is it mainly lake rocks? dirt? do you know any kind of consistency? i just want a feel for it so i can duplicate something useful for mine. i know mine likes to dig up a burrow at night and hides there even though he has multiple hides.

andrew

andrew,

V. niloticus and more-so with V. ornatus live in regions of permanant water sources, primary and rainforests across Africa; V. niloticus is a African-pandemic species, living in every country of Africa except Western Sahara (a Protectorate of Morocco), Algeria and Libya - go find a good geography/Atlas book at Barnes and Noble and look at the geologic map for Africa and you will see it varies across this continent; on a more local scale, nile monitors make their breeding nests in termite mounds and mud-banks of high-water river levels. V. ornatus makes their nests/burrows in substrate of rainforest consistancy....and BOTH of them require high level of invertebrates in their diet as youths, and more marine/fresh water molluscs as adults...to do otherwise and your animals under long term care will pop up with maladies unfavourable to all concerned.

This is the same with the V. gouldii complex, especially V. gouldii and V.g. flavirufus subspecies whose diet is predominantly insects/invertebrates, where-as their close cousin, V. rosenbergi feeds on larger carrion/mammalia and assorted invert/vertebrate diet - to do otherwise, especially on a long term manner, their breeding regimens are not going to be optimal, and could cause premature massive cell-death malfunction....these animals metabolic systems are in some cases designed for certain habitats, temps, diet and so on...and doing a little homework and especially common sense, can go a long ways to a successful life experience for goanna and keeper alike.

It is not hard...and makes their lives enhanced, as compared to the antiquated slave-trade mannerisms that bring these animals overseas to this foreign shore and barbaric treatment they endure - it is amazing any of them survive! It is to their adaptability, intelligence and Mother Nature they survive here at all, considering how many are brought in, how many perish and how many reproduce and have some kind of quality of life while living on this north american devils island as it were....
cheers,
markb

Is the fellow youre talking about a resident of Manila?

good day to you mark...
i was wondering if the one you know who keeps olivaceus, resides in manila? i'm from manila too...
here's my point, of all olivaceus keepers that i know here in the philippines, most of their animals w/c is fed mainly with chicken heads and rodents, already died and some of them w/c are still alive today are all obese...
and yes there many fruits in the market that they are going to eat besides grapes and pandanus, you can give them duhat(dont know the sci. name) jackfruit, i have tried papayas but they wont eat a lot, pili fruit(big and small species are both consumed) based on my experience, they will eat only an ample amount of pandanus fruit even if you give them different fruits to choose... all is eaten in moderate passion, not the varanid way... all is eaten depends on the quantity of different fruits that you'll give, maybe to synthesize or balance something in their digestive system... and yes they will eat rodents w/out hesitations at all... but it is primarily important to give them different choices on their diet for their well being....
thanks again sir, and have a nice day!
HENDRIX

Hello Hendrix,

Thank you for your post - it is very informative and helpful. My friend lives in Europe, not in Philippines...and he has 2 of the only 4 in captivity i know of....I will forward your post to him directly...

Many Thanks Hendrix,
markb

Its great to see that some are actually willing to be open, as you are! Look forward to working with you.
all the best,
Michelle

hello...
thanks for the comment michelle, cant wait also to meet you personally.... btw, what happened to you? did you fall on some glass? how? how are you doin now?