Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't want to stir anything up here, I was just wondering how many more years do you think it will take before ball python morphs start showing up in petstores at petstore prices. Somewhat how you can find different morphs of leopard geckos randomly at petshops that sell them all for the same price. Maybe well over 10 years? Thanks for your time, and I appreciate any input.
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Sal
Geckos "R" Us

www.geckosrus.com

at least 10 years before pastels show up in pet stores and they will still be around $300 . Since all morphs of BP's are still over $1000 and most being over $2000 it will still be a long time until in pet stores. the reason leos are so common in pet stores is because so many are being breed in captivity.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

Leos also don't take 3 years to become breeding size.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

that is probably the only reason the leo morphs are so inexpensive (compared to other lizard/snake morphs).
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

Thats true about Leos. I also notice that the good BP breeders are also doing a good job pricing these animals accordingly. That should help the value of the pythons stick for many years.
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Sal
Geckos "R" Us

www.geckosrus.com

and the "local shop" here will have ghosts and albinos........yep....well.....it is "THE world's largest petshop" too...........

....really...they got 150 snakes from me a year more or less........

........and we (herpers) sell cheaper than they do.......

.........

A local petstore had an albino female for $4000.So, that was a good deal for someone going to a petshop to buy a morph.LOL

My prediction is that prices will drop to reasonable levels in 5-10 years for a majority of the morphs. As more and more people get into breeding Balls purely for the profit of it, the population of the most desirable morphs will skyrocket. An average of five to six eggs per cluth isn't really that bad when you're breeding 10-20 females for a single co-dominant morph. Especially if it's a dominant or homozygous co-dominant. Imagine what happens to the precious supply and demand when the majority of small breeders, blinded by dollar signs, start producing anywhere from 25 to 100 of a single morph each year I can see the recessive, and double recessive, taking a lot longer. But, basically, this is just a breeders market with no aspirations of the pet trade. The pet trade means less profit and to a lot of the people I've seen here, less profit means it's just not worth breeding.

*This is my opinion and is not meant to be inflamitory.

I'd rather sell to other breeders than 99% of the people who are buying a "cool" new pet snake at the pet store.

I totally agree with your statement. I find the people who will seriously take care of an animal will look into the breeders for the animal of their choice. They also tend to have done much more research, and it somewhat hinders impulsive buying.
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Sal
Geckos "R" Us

www.geckosrus.com

And not to flog this dead horse any longer, but that's why a lot of professional dog breeders screen potential buyers. The same thing will work for Balls.

The only problem I see with not wanting to ever enter the pet trade, is that the only reason to breed is for the profit. Would you still breed your snakes even if the profit was 25%? I have a feeling that most breeders wouldn't. From the eyes of a newcomer to Ball breeding, it appears that a vast majority of breeders are only concerned with how much money they can make off of their animals. How else do you explain the prices that some people are charging for nice looking normal males? I don't want to see animals abused any more than you guys and I've seen my share of pet store horror stories, right down to an owner who wouldn't feed their snakes because it was "mean to the mice". But educating the public is a better answer than shunning them and keeping Ball morphs elitest. I, personally, would rather see an animal go to a loving and educated home over someone who's going to use the animal up as quickly as possible for profit's sake.

*Again, just my personal opinions.

I agree that the co-dom traits and such will drop in price faster, especially with the small time breeders hoping to produce more morphs quickly, but I think you're out of your mind if you believe small time breeders can afford 10-20 females. Most people don't have time, space or experience for that sort of committment right away. At least, I hope people put more thought into it before they see dollar signs and start buying up animals left and right.

I've been told I'm out of my mind a time or two.

The price of 10-20 normal females wouldn't be than much higher than one of morph-X. Granted, that's a lot of snakes to take care of but it's not really that difficult to care for Balls. I'm sure breeding and hatching time would be a completely different story as that number could easily jump to 100 animals. And from my observatoins, there are many people who see $$$ first and animals second in reptile breeding.

Just had to add this, I'm not saying that all breeders are driven solely by profit.

And from my observatoins, there are many people who see $$$ first and animals second in reptile breeding.

I'd prefer to see that than the usual people who buy animals on impulse to "wow" their friends and seem "cool" and "on the fringe". At least with breeders, the animals are well-cared for and not in aquariums with screen tops, hot rocks, 200W basking lamps, draped around someone's neck while they rollerblade downtown with a crow on their other shoulder. etc etc etc.

Give me the breeders any day. Snakes don't breed very well when they aren't cared for. Ever wonder why no one with more than 10 Ball Pythons breeds 100% of their collection? Because they can't. Balls need special conditions. And even though its not hard, it doesn't always work.

I can honestly see where you're coming from, I used to work in a pet store. And I caught that little shot, too.

But, again, educating the public is the key not shunning them. You don't have to sell to pet stores or anyone off the street. Be picky and choosey, you brought those lives into the world and want to see them well cared for after the sale. Looking at any living creature and seeing $$$ first and foremost cheapens that life form and borders on exploitation. Can you at least see where I'm coming from with this? Look at it this way, you want to buy any pure bred dog from a responsible breeder. More likely than not, you're going to have to fill out an application and be approved. Some breeders go so far as to inspect their puppies future homes, if not in person than in picture. You've just been approved for your new pup, now you have to sign a contract. And a lot will have a return clause if the animal isn't being treated properly. Those breeders do follow-ups with their customers and will take back any animal for any reason. No, I'm not comparing snakes and dogs, just the sales approach for placing animals in the correct environment.

I sound like a used car salesman or late night infomertial because I'm a damn good salesman. As a salesman you have to be able to educate your customer, not only build a relationship. You have to be able to read the customer to see if they're correct for what you're selling. You know what you're looking for and what you want to hear from a prospective buyer, who cares if it comes from a breeder or someone who wants a beautiful pet. If that person is going to take care for an animal that you produced the way you'd like to see it cared for, then you haven't sold it to an idiot.

"The pet trade means less profit and to a lot of the people I've seen here, less profit means it's just not worth breeding."

To me this is the big question, at what price will people stop trying to breed more and supply drop off and prices stabilize. I'm hoping it will still be in the $300 - $600 range for morph ball pythons which will still be plenty profitable for someone with know-how and willing to work at it. If they where any more prolific or easy to breed the price could go lower but I'm hoping that one could eventually make a well earned living with 30 - 40 adult morph females. I don't begrudge the higher profits that are needed now to develop the morphs but I'm thinking/hoping that once those profits fall enough breeders will drop out to make a decent stabilization price.

On the other hand if too many people keep breeding just for the love of it and without regard to profitability it will end up like the corn snake market where only a handful of the most savvy and very hard working individuals make a living at it. This is pretty much the situation with dog breeding and even cattle ranching (too many people doing it for sentimental reasons).

Excellent points and I couldn't agree more.

And what kind of pet store are you talking about. I know that the popular thing to do is to talk trash about any petstore no matter who owns it or how well the animals are taken care of But there are many pet stores out there that are very good with their animals. I've never seen a chain pet store that I would be willing to buy any animals from. Most of these buy cheap imported animals or large quanities of cbb animals that can be produced in massive quanties for very little expense. like leo geckos, corn snakes, burmese pythons... Ball pythons are not in that catagory and it's unlikly that you will ever see ball pythons morphs in a petco. On the other hand there are some very good family or individually owned pet stores that are run by other hobbiests and people with enough knowledge and experience to produce high end animals themselves. I've been frequenting a pet store that specializes in reptiles for the past 14 years. The owner is also a breeder. I have no doubt that he will be offering albino or piebald or pastel ball pythons in his store possibly by next year. He has often had high end animals like albino boas, Woma pythons, emerald tree boas, and stuff like that available on his sales floor with pricetags in the thousands of dollars for many years. So, you really have to differentiate when you say 'Pet store prices' because not all pet stores are the same.

On the other hand if your real question is 'when are ball python morphs going to be sold for hundereds of dollars rather then thousands of dollars', I think you will have a long time to wait.

Mark