Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi.

I'm dropping in for a visit here. I'm strictly a radiant heat panel user but I want to get a 72" slanted Neodesha cage for my tegu and light/heat it with one high-watt bulb. I've heard about the UV Heat, PowerSun, Mercury Vapor Bulbs, etc., but I've never used one.

If I mount a high-watt flood-type bulb inside the cage with Neo's fixture adapter, can I expect to get a hot and wide basking area of 110 degrees or more? Bulb recommendations? What would you monitor owners use to provide heat and UV in that cage? The cage will be in a normal room temperature (70 degrees) environment.

Thanks!

Bill

Alot of people here use halogen floodlights. I use a double 65 watt fixture to create basking sites for my ackies and my argus cages. The top of the basking site is about 10" or so from the bottom of the bulbs, this gives me surface temps of between 130-120 degrees, obviously cooler along the perimeter of the basking site. Check out pro exotics web site they got some info concerning this topic, (faqs area). I'm interested in rhp's as a supplementary heat source, including nite time heating. I'm using ceramics right now. How do rhp's compare with che's. Are they more efficent?? For instance I have a 150 watt che heating my argus cage at night and the temps are lower in comparison to the two 75 watt halogens. It seems that the heat energy produced by the halogens is greater than that of the ceramics??? I never used a rhp as they cost more then che's. What are the pros of using rhp's, is the cost of them justified by their preformance? I'd like to hear why you prefer them, hope you can give me some insight. Clint

Hey, Clint.

I've been using radiant heat panels for about 10 years. Today I have them in sizes ranging from 6" x 12" up to 18" x 24".

IMO, radiant heat panels can't be beat. First off, they are safe; you simply mount them to the inside cage ceiling with the supplied machine screws and run the cord out of the cage. The panel face does not get so hot that an animal could burn itself by briefly touching it or flicking it with a tongue.

Second, they provide a wide, even basking area. Just short of the panel's edge-to-edge measurements.

Third, they heat the air in the cage as well as provide a basking spot; something you just can't get with any kind of belly heat. My cages are in a normal room temperature environment (around 70). For me, any kind of belly heat won't do anything but give me a cold cage with a hot spot.

Fourth, radiant heat panels do not give off any light so they're perfect for 24/7 heating. If you like a night drop, no problem; a proportional thermostat with ND will work just fine.

Fifth, since radiant heat panels are mounted on the inside of the cage, this allows for a cage with a solid top--no open holes to let the heat and humidity out like a chimney.

Sixth, RHPs do not burn out like bulbs. I have a couple that have been running for 10 years.

As far as cage compatibility, RHPs are compatible with anything out there. Just do not place a panel on top of a screen! The correct way to use one in a screened-top enclosure is to mount it to the screen so that the panel is on the inside of the cage.

I currently have RHPs in Neodesha and BARR'S cages, which are my two favorites.

Now, a note about the heat...

RHPs provide good basking heat; best measured with an IR thermometer. One example: I have an 18 x 24 panel in a 6-foot Neodesha Custom cage for a blue tegu. The panel is mounted with four 4" machine screws that allow me to lower the panel in the cage down closer to the 18" square slab of slate below it. The slate really retains the heat and is a great basking bed. With the panel about 10 inches from the slate I get a basking temp of about 110. So when the adult male tegu is on top of the slate the temp on his back is obviously higher because it is closer to the panel. Since the panel heats the cage air, the far cool end temp (measured 2" above the substrate) in this 67 x 30 x 18 cage ranges from around 78 to the low 80s depending on the room temp.

So, if radiant heat panels are so great why am I asking about UV/Heat bulbs? Because in a 72" slanted Neo cage I wouldn't effectively be able to use the heat panel and dual 4-foot UV bulb combination I'm currently using for the tegu. The top of the cage slants upward and the distance to the cage floor is too great. But I really like the wide-open viewing of the slanted 72" cage so I'm hoping one or two hi-watt UV flood bulbs will be all I need.

I hope this answers your questions. Any other questions?

Regards,

Bill

Hey Bill thanx for the time. What manufacturer do you recommend, also is their a formula for size of enclosure x room ambients x desired temps to calculate the proper panel size. What about thermostats, does anyone make a model with a built in thermostat?? Theres an idea. Your right about the slate, I use a blue stone for construction of (Retes stacks) the darker the stone the better as well. Good luck with your search, maybe by next winter I'll invest in a rhp and a thermostat. Clint

I use Pro Products. Great panels with a 10-year warranty. UL listed. Outstanding customer service--Bob Pound of Pro Products is a great guy to talk with. All you have to do is call him and he'll make sure you get the correct panel size, based on room temperature, type of cage, type of animal, etc.

I can tell you what sizes I use (67 - 70 degree room temp in winter, Neo and BARR cages):

6 x 12" panel for 24 x 12 x 12 cages.
12 x 12" panel for 36" slanted Neo cages.
9 x 12" panel for a 24" arboreal cube cage.
10-1/2 x 12" panel for a 24 x 24 x 12 cage.
12 x 18" panel for 48 x 30 x 18 cages, plus a 6 x 12" in the cool end during winter months.
18 x 24" panel for 67 x 30 x 18 cages.

I have a couple of melamine cages as well but the panel-to-cage size ratio is similar.

I generally control the panels with proportional thermostats if the cage can get too hot. Probe in cool end, 2" off cage floor. My most current thermostats are Big Apple Herp. IMO they are great. Panels can also be controlled with rheostats like the Lutron Lamp Dimmer switch available at Home Depot.

Regards,

Bill

"IMO, radiant heat panels can't be beat. First off, they are safe; you simply mount them to the inside cage ceiling with the supplied machine screws and run the cord out of the cage. The panel face does not get so hot that an animal could burn itself by briefly touching it or flicking it with a tongue."

Ive never had an animal burn themselves with halogen flood lights mounted inside of the cage, ever in about 13 years with monitors (and beardies and other reptileson and off). Ive had them climb onto the bulbs, push them etc with no injuries and thats mounted at 8 inches to a foot away from the basking spot to get 156-188 f surfaces.

"Second, they provide a wide, even basking area. Just short of the panel's edge-to-edge measurements."

How long do they bask for? With a basking surface thats 130 they dont need to expose themselves to being in the open half of the day so they can warm up then go about what they want to do.

"Third, they heat the air in the cage as well as provide a basking spot; something you just can't get with any kind of belly heat. My cages are in a normal room temperature environment (around 70). For me, any kind of belly heat won't do anything but give me a cold cage with a hot spot."

You call it belly heat the use of a hot basking spot but its providing a proper temperature gradient from that surface to a room temperature as the animal needs to choose the proper temps to thermoregulate. If my 4x4x8ft cage with a foot and and a half of dirt with 4 45 watt bulbs is more than enough to heat the basking spot and the air and need a dimmer for summer use then I cant see why it wouldnt work for a smaller cage with even less area and less bulbs, and it worked for a slightly larger vision cage (lousey cage for a large lizard).

"Fourth, radiant heat panels do not give off any light so they're perfect for 24/7 heating. If you like a night drop, no problem; a proportional thermostat with ND will work just fine."

Below is how my monitors escape the heat of a 24/7 light cycle which allows them to choose when they want or need to bask, not us telling them when they can. The light doesnt bother them because for on the lights are on one end (proper gradient) and they can go underground when they want to. Ive seen them sleep just fine on the surface also, the light doesnt bother them at all, its the heat like drinking a few pots of coffee and trying to sleep. I know if I have a bulb out by looking, really easy.

"Fifth, since radiant heat panels are mounted on the inside of the cage, this allows for a cage with a solid top--no open holes to let the heat and humidity out like a chimney."

Thats the best way to have a cage, solid top, and mount the lights inside, as you said the heat stays in it takes alot less to heat it and it keep the moisture in most important of all.

"Sixth, RHPs do not burn out like bulbs. I have a couple that have been running for 10 years."

Ive never used them but Ive seen plenty of burnt charred RHPs that in a few cases started a fire in the room or cage that they burnt out in. I never have a problem with halogen outdoor flood bulbs as they are mounted in ceramic light fixtures to plywood, that can be adjusted for distance from the surface, by simply raising lowering 4 chains.

"RHPs provide good basking heat; best measured with an IR thermometer. One example: I have an 18 x 24 panel in a 6-foot Neodesha Custom cage for a blue tegu. The panel is mounted with four 4" machine screws that allow me to lower the panel in the cage down closer to the 18" square slab of slate below it. The slate really retains the heat and is a great basking bed. With the panel about 10 inches from the slate I get a basking temp of about 110. So when the adult male tegu is on top of the slate the temp on his back is obviously higher because it is closer to the panel. Since the panel heats the cage air, the far cool end temp (measured 2" above the substrate) in this 67 x 30 x 18 cage ranges from around 78 to the low 80s depending on the room temp."

At 12-14 inches I can get 135-156 degrees plus with halogen outdoor floods on plywood withan air temp of 86 degrees around the basking spot and around 68-72 defrees f at the cool end, thats a tempo gradient. 78-83 is too hot on the cool end, it defeats the gradient.

"So, if radiant heat panels are so great why am I asking about UV/Heat bulbs? Because in a 72" slanted Neo cage I wouldn't effectively be able to use the heat panel and dual 4-foot UV bulb combination I'm currently using for the tegu. The top of the cage slants upward and the distance to the cage floor is too great. But I really like the wide-open viewing of the slanted 72" cage so I'm hoping one or two hi-watt UV flood bulbs will be all I need."

I wouldnt use high wattage lights or those junk powersun bulbs. The powersuns use high wattage, dont put a comparative amount of heat out, heat the cage ambients too high and dry the cage out, they only put out UVB to 3-6 inches away, there a test that proved that. High wattage bulbs destroy your temp gradient and the ainimal cannot choose to cool down , and has dehydration problems eventually because the air temp is too high. This picture demonstrates how my animals escape the heat.

Shawn Henderson

Since my cages are throughout my house and most of my animals are of the legless variety, having bulbs inside the cage is not what I want to do, nor is having them lit all night long. But in the application for the 6-foot Neo cage and the tegu, it would not require hot temps during the night so I'd be fine with bulbs in that enclosure during the day.

For heating a snake's cage in room-temperature environments, that means creating a basking area, thermal gradient, and cool end within the recommended guidlines for the animal, nothing is better than radiant heat panels. I used to use red bulbs inside the cages before I found the panels, red because I needed to have them on for night heating as well, but for the last 10 years the panels are all I've used.

There are no stories of Pro Products brand radiant heat panels starting fires. The materials they use are self-extinguishing. If you use a blow torch on one it would burn until you take the torch away, then it stops burning almost immediately. However, there was a very real problem years ago with some Pro Products panels that showed up as dark, black-looking edges that looked burnt and pretty nasty; they were actually not burnt but rather the coating had melted away in that area, exposing the black material underneath. It took a while under continuous use before the defective panels got to that state, but nevertheless they did. I, however, did not own one of those panels

I have, however, recently heard a couple of stories about Helix-brand radiant heat pads cracking after years of steady use, and possibly shorting out if water is sprayed on the cracked panels during cage misting. I believe the Helix panels are made of different material; ABS plastic I think. However, I just heard this through the Internet grapevine and have not seen a Helix panel cracked from long-term use. But I would take that story with a grain of salt unless I actually saw it; some people may not be using the Helix panels correctly or perhaps they are subjecting them to hard treatment.

Anyway, I like your idea of using multiple bulbs rather than one high-watt bulb. That makes a lot of good sense and it would allow me to create as large of a basking area as I'd need. Thanks!

Regards,

Bill

I use the 160 Watt PowerSuns on my Iguanas in freeroaming situations. Just to give you an idea...in a 10x12 room in 70 degree ambient heat, the PowerSuns are creating a 96 degree basking spot at 22 inches in height from the surface. On my Uromastyx, a 100 Watt PS is creating 130 degrees at 9 inches in a 3x5 enclosure. I'm using ordinary halogen floods on my (adult) monitors and tegus, mostly 50 watt bulbs.

Thanks!

At the 22" distance, is it a wide basking area or a narrow spot of 96-degree heat?

Bill

The cage has a foot and a half of dirt in the bottom and that basking spot surface is 156-165 f. The cage is 4x4x8 ft (too small), and that heats it great from a room temp of 66-68 f, the temp gradient is good and I also use a dimmer on those basking lights during the summer to lower the average ambient temps. Im gonna build something much larger 10x6x5ft with 2 basking spots like that for her next.
High wattage bulbs dont heat surfaces any better than smaller halogens but they heat the air to a temp that drys the cage out and dehydrates your animal, as well use alot of electricity in comparison. Thats the ideas to a temp gradient to allow your animal to choose what it needs. That cage isnt very big, at one time I used a vision cage a bit bigger than that, it had 3 /45 watt outdoor halogens on a dimmer to accomplish something similar. The amount of bulbs depends on how big the animal is to cover a basking spot thats at least STV length, the picture is Sobek, shes about 6ft 1 inch.

I couldn't see the picture, just a box with a red X.

You have the three bulbs in a row, I guess? That's kind of neat. About how much distance apart are they, and how far from the substrate?

Bill

Edge to bulb edge.
The albigs have 3-4 bulbs mounted about 12-14 inches from a 3/4 inch plywood basking spot, the results are ambient temps of 86 f and surface temps of 156-165 that are from 30 inches to 40 inches long and about 10 inches or so wide so that their whole STV length is covered. Heres that pic, of how they avoid heat and conserve moisture.