Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi folks,

Rememeber a couple of months back, there was a discussion about people selling chameleons from one clutch as " pairs"? I think Morgana from Reptayls was expressing her displeasure about it. Well, the situation hasn't changed much. Irresponsible people are still selling their chameleons as "pairs" , with some going as fair as even give a discount if it is a 1.1 ratio.(yes..they list it as a 1.1).

The other day, one particular add selling Deremensis was selling their deremensis clutch in 1.1 pairs, got to me...so i emailed them politely asking if they were from the same bloodline. the person sent a very rude email to me. well, i guess i appear to be bursting this ethicaly questionable seller's bubble.
This is the copy of what was sent to me:

Dear Chameleon "police",

I can't help but notice that you can't spell. It's not "imbreded"
chameleons, but inbred chameleons. Now that we have that straightened
out, let's team up. You can police the world for the dreaded
"imbreded"
animal, and I can come behind and make sure it's spelled correctly.

Seriously, you are over reacting. People who keep and breed deremensis
are not first time chameleon keepers, by any means. For the most part,
these people are experienced enough to produce very fine animals that
are an asset to the overall chameleon gene pool. I have sold several
pairs to people who already have deremensis and were looking for new
animals to bring genetic diversity into their breeding colony, not to
breed to each other.

You should also be aware that inbreeding enhances traits both good and
bad. When used responsibly and followed by outbreeding, it can be a
useful tool for acquiring a desired trait. I suggest you check out the
lineage of your favorite race horse or show dog, you may be surprised.
So, would you like to buy a pair?

Sorry if the letter made this post long. Just to give you guys a warning if you decide to buy deremensis. so ,from the sound of it, don't you think this person inbreeds? All you people who are strongly againts inbred chameleons, and who care about the wellfare of captive chameleons, I urge you to drop this unethical dealer a line.

oh, btw the add is in the classifieds.

I dont care what you guys think but i agree with this part:
"You should also be aware that inbreeding enhances traits both good and
bad. When used responsibly and followed by outbreeding, it can be a
useful tool for acquiring a desired trait. I suggest you check out the
lineage of your favorite race horse or show dog, you may be surprised. "

this is very true many good traits in animals are broughts out with care full inbreeding. just as lonng as the person doesn't go to far into the linage. I know many panther breeders who imbreed to get good colors to show.Also imbreeding is bond to happine a few times in the wild im pretty sure one generation can get through with out bad defects but after that its if'y

Also think about how some animals colors came about. the white bengal tigers all stemed from one male found in the wild...now how do we have so many in zoo's? there had to be imbreeding in the linage somewhere.

sorry just had to get that out.

Aside from calling you the imbred police lol (i know not funny) there was nothing wrong with what he said. Maybe calling his integrity into question irked him.
Like myself he may say exactly what he means but not gentle enough for others.
I think people get carried away with the whole idea that all imbreeding is bad. You can bet the majority of veilds and panthers in captivity are related and been bred many generations to siblings. Check some of the big breeders out there. They sell a large majority of chameleons and then their buyers may sell them (look in the classifieds). You can bet siblings and parents are being bred to each other over and over. I'm in no way saying intentional but their is only a small number of breeders out there and basically it's recycled blood.

This is and kinda always has been a touchy subject, so I'll offer my opinion on it. Take it however you want. While it is a fact that most other reptiles are bred to their brothers/sisters/parents maybe with no obvious bad effects, I don't see a good reason to do it with chameleons. There are no albinos or other "specialty" colors that NEED to be expanded. If someone says they bred a chameleon to it's brother to bring out a good trait, they're just looking for excuses not to have to buy an unrelated mate for it. If someone wants to be able to sell unrelated pairs of chameleons, they need to be prepared to have 2 completely separate bloodlines to choose from, or find a breeder that they can trade 50/50 with so they both have an expanded selection. Morgana has always expressed her negative feelings towards it, and I agree with her completely. Chameleons have specialized bodies and functions (eyes, tounges etc.) that I feel need all the perfection they can get. There are always going to be people who offer "1.1 pairs" of chameleons that are the same species, and the same age. The only thing that can really be done is to point it out to them (as you did) and hope they stop looking for reasons to say it's ok. And like I said, it's one thing to breed a snake that is albino or some other fancy type to a related animal because that is required to bring out a trait, but with chameleons, there is none of that. I have routinely told people via E-Mail to steer clear of most of the Diego's on the market because I feel that most of them have originated from one place. Besides that locale, there are currently enough panther chameleons in captivity (and WC's coming in) that someone can't say they had to do it. The same can be said for other types of chameleons coming in. If someone's going to hatch out a clutch and sell them as pairs, they are targeting the inexperienced chameleon buyer. Let the snake and gecko people do what they want, but I feel the chameleons need to be more carefully watched.

www.ChameleonDatabase.com
-----
Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

I totally agree with your points Tyler. There is absolutely no need to inbreed chameleons. Like Tyler said, there are no, or at least not much, “designer” chameleon morphs out there or any genetic gems such as albino or “Het leucistic” chameleons out there. There is no demand for it in the market or at least not any significant number.

I might be wrong about this because I totally do not practice inbreeding, but even those that breed relatives to each other don’t breed siblings. The don’t breed across the bloodline; they breed down the bloodline, if I am not mistaken.

Even if one gave the excuse that it is to enhance the bloodlines, wouldn’t the negative outcomes such as sickly, deformed chameleons outweigh the positive points? Do you think it is worth experimenting on a number of lives just to get one chameleon, which may not even be 25% “better” than a normal chameleon? Just so one can earn a little extra money? Wouldn’t that ultimately pollute the gene pool of all chameleons in captivity?

I doubt that the seller had any intentions to enhance the bloodline of her/his Deremesis. What superior trait is he/she looking for? Deremesis with longer beautiful horns? Or perhaps Deremensis with a blue coloration. I honestly doubt that there was any intention to enhance anything other than his/her wallet.

Think of it in the long run. Sure, you probably haven’t seen any deformed chameleons in the pet trade. If breeders are encouraged to inbreed their chameleons, in five years time, everybody would have a chameleon that can’t shoot his tongue; a chameleon that has one toe short, or a panther chameleon that doesn’t live past 8 months old. Then, what would you say? This gives animal cruelty groups and organization a great argument for banning captive reptiles to the hobbyist.

To those of you who do not oppose inbreeding chameleon siblings, let me ask you this question. Would you, in all honestly, buy a pair (1.1) from a person who inbreeds? Chamrcool, this is not a personal attack on you, but can I ask you this; If you have a need for a chameleon breeding pair of Deremensis, would your 1.1 pair from this buy from this particular breeder? For that matter, if you know this person inbreeds, would u even buy one chameleon from her/him. If you say yes, then kudos to you. At least you are honest.

And Tyler, it’s good to know that there are still some breeders out there that are ethical.

That is all it is. Do not buy one pair of chameleons, breed them and then sell off the offspring as breedable pairs, when all you have to do is buy another pair. Then you have two bloodlines and that is all you need to start.
And talking about inbreeding in dogs, that's all fine and dandy, unfornately a great deal of heriditary defects are passed down as well. Take buying a pure-bred Great Dane. They have short life spans, hip dysplasia and numerous other genetic defects, all caused from generations of inbreeding.
The only time that I can see inbreeding as somewhat acceptable practice, is with species that are very rare in the marketplace. In the case of chameleons, such species as the Calumma family, or the rarer Furcifer species. But even not clutchmates. You would breed further down generations or breed back up generations. The species in question, Chamealeo deremensis is not even that rare of a species. They're imported in regular numbers and are fairly inexpensive. Its greed and laziness.

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