Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am definately not able to keep such a species, but I was wondering if anyone on here was interested in this sp. I've heard they are amazing creatures, but incredibly agile and can be very aggressive at times...like a d. polylepis on crack. I've heard of very few people who've actually successfully kept this species for any given period of time, and was just wondering if anyone was gonna give this snake a try. First time i've ever seen one available on classifieds before...wish I had more experience with huge, fast, aggressive elapids!

AP

Even if i did have the skill and experience to keep such a snake, the fact that it is incredibly toxic and has no effective antivenin to combat a bite would definately make me wary about keeping such a snake.

AP

I saw this snake, and was also pretty amazed. Note that the pictures shown are only of the snake being restrained by the head. I'd wager that that means it couldn't have been photographed safely while in the holding container (probably a rack system). I can't blame them....I certainly wouldn't risk trying to photo a snake like that which was completely free to move in a small rack container. They seem to be very neat snakes though, and I've heard the same comments you have on the species (polylepis on crack). It should definitely make a person think twice before making the plunge. Good luck to whomever gets it!
-Chance

the price...$1500...for a WC snake that few people have kept and could potentially be a nightmare to try and properly acclimate, that's a hell of an investment. But, someone's gotta start somewhere...maybe Randy Ciuros will be interested, seeing how he keeps all sorts of nasties,

AP

When I managed a large herp dealership in Florida 6 yrs ago or so, we occaisionally brought in Golds in our African shipments and they weren't as aggressive as say a Forest. Some of these animals were around 4' to 5', and not that flighty. I think we sold them for around $200.00 or so. MaddReptiles imported 2 of them late last year, so they do pop in every once and a while.

The price is pretty steep for a w.c. African elapid (we all know how great of condition those are usually in), but might be worth it if someone could get it a mate and produce the first cbb goldii in the country. As for Randy, he's a good guy. I've spoken through e-mail with him numerous times as well as on the phone, and I have nothing but excellent things to say about the man. We've swapped taipan stories back and forth, both good and bad, and I greatly admire his collection and keeping abilities. I can only wish him better luck with his future clutches of PNG elapids. Hopefully he and I both will have some success with canni, and I definitely hope he gets a mate for that mulga and produces them.
-Chance

That is an animal that Ray Hunter brought in...... I would say it would be in great condition if it is in his hands...... The price is not very steep considering how hard they are to come across...... They aint the type of snake I would want in the house but they are pretty damn impressive.....

...keeping me off this snake.

#1: Running out of cage space for really large elapids, darn it. I just need to remodel my house. *grumble* Expecting (if all goes well) two litters of baby kings sired by my super high orange male on some very nice looking females. Those will be good fun to raise but it will pretty much eat all of my available cage space.

#2: I don't have an extra $1500 lying around. That's much too high a price for this animal in my opinion, though if somebody actually pays it, that's the open market for you.

I would love to grab this guy and get some data on the species (baseline blood chemistry, parasite load, venom samples etc) but I think I'll have to pass on this one. *sob* It is beautiful though and I'm drooling over the pictures.

Chance,

I agree, Randy Ciuros's collection is quite impressive. I haven't met or talked to him, but I've admired venomstreet.com for a while now, For what he keeps, he must be a pretty damn competant and responsible keeper if he's still alive! As for you, I must say that you are very lucky to be keeping taipans! I know you have PNG's, right? What I want to see are O. microlepidotus being bred and kept in the U.S. How and where did you aquire them? Not that I'm in the market, just curious.

MsTT,

I have wet dreams about your orange-phase king cobra. Okay, not quite wet dreams, but that snake is gorgeous. How big is he? How many kings do you have? If all goes well, with two clutches of eggs, you might be the caretaker for almost 100 kings! I would say put me down for one, but I have neither the money, the space, nor the experience (yet!) to keep one...Bet you're loading up on the feeder ball pythons, right? One more question about your hannah's: How big are their cages? And how big of a nesting enclosure are you going to use for the female(s)? That would definately be impressive to see them go about building a nest, you HAVE TO take pics!

AP

Feeding them is certainly going to be fun. Fortunately both of the females belong to another keeper so we will be sharing baby raising duty. The mating and introduction was on his premises (he has much bigger display cages than I do) and the nesting will be also. My orange boy is just doing stud service. LOL He's a lucky king cobra this season.

MsTT,

Seeing how i'd never seen a king like yours before, has that color phase been proven genetic before, or could it just be a mutation? 'Cuz it'd be awesome to produce hets for that. And a few more years down the line, producing high orange kings regularly. What's the history on him? I'm telling you, the moment I saw that snake, I almost messed myself Not really, but you know what i mean, that snake is hypnotizing. Closest I've seen are sunset monocles. Whew. Don't know what else to say. Just tell me all you can about that snake

AP

Well, it's orange, and it's very pretty, and it was eager to mate with both females presented. It came in from Malaysia, and several other notably orange snakes have also come in through the same channels.

It will be interesting to find homes for all the babies, because I am *not* going to put any animals on the open market due to the fact that they may be abused and mutilated by venomoid hacks. Some will be will be given away, traded or sold privately to people I already know and trust. The rest we get to raise, what fun.

Hmmmm, it certainly has been a while since TT posted some new
pics of SunkistLOL (hint, hint).
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

>>I agree, Randy Ciuros's collection is quite impressive. I haven't met or talked to him, but I've admired venomstreet.com for a while now, For what he keeps, he must be a pretty damn competant and responsible keeper if he's still alive! As for you, I must say that you are very lucky to be keeping taipans! I know you have PNG's, right? What I want to see are O. microlepidotus being bred and kept in the U.S. How and where did you aquire them? Not that I'm in the market, just curious.

I would imagine that yes, Randy must be a very competant handler knowing that he has dealt with some of the most notorious elapids on the planet and I've yet to hear of any incidences of his. I do consider myself very lucky to have been able to acquire a pair of baby taipans. From the time I really got interested in snakes and knew what a taipan was, it was my pinnacle. When I got the opportunity to acquire this pair, I jumped on it, even if it meant putting myself a bit deeper in school loan debt They are PNG taipans, O. s. canni, and are currently around 25" in length. They were acquired from Robbie at Crocafeller Reptiles in Florida. To his knowledge, he is the only private (and maybe only period) individual to have produced canni in the US. Certainly an noteworthy accomplishment. The last I heard anything from him, his adults were well into the breeding season and I believe he said they had already locked up, so be on the lookout for more to be offered later in the summer. I hope to have mine up and breeding by '06 or so, just depends on how fast they want to grow. I hope to, at some point in the future, acquire other seldomly kept PNG or Aussie elapids, like the brown and blacksnakes, but for me, the taipans just have me awe-inspired. This is the link to my personal photo gallery here on Kingsnake incase you wanted to take a look at them, http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?user=41019&cat=500&thumb=1 . I too would like to see the mainland elapids being kept, like true O. s. scutellatus, O. microlepidotus, all the Notechis, etc etc etc. That may very well happen relatively soon. Australia just recently decided that they were going to open up export to a certain few species, mostly lizards. I imagine that once they see how well that goes, they'll open up to more. There currently aren't any venomous snakes on the list to be exported, but it won't take long.
-Chance

Chance,

Yeah, I agree, it would be nice if aussie elaps were being bred or kept in greater numbers. I think Australia needs to realize that there needs to be more breeding programs to preserve these animals, and that exporting a few to reputable breeders and having them captively produced is not going to do any harm, if anything, it'll probably help put less stress on wild populations (i'm sure even with aussie's strong hold on reptiles, some get through on the black market). Maybe they are starting to get the idea. Maybe in '06 when your cannis are ready to breed, I'll sign myself up for a neo...that would be awesome, as oxyuranus is definately one of my favorite genus. If you don't mind, around how much did you dish out for the pair? I can imagine CB O.s.canni could command a pretty nice price tag. I think i saw your posts earlier about your canni's teeth starting to grow through the bottom of their mouths, very interesting stuff. Evolution at work? Maybe. Either way, it's worth the documentation. What else are you currently keeping/breeding besides the canni?

AP

>Yeah, I agree, it would be nice if aussie elaps were being >bred or kept in greater numbers. I think Australia needs to >realize that there needs to be more breeding programs to >preserve these animals, and that exporting a few to reputable >breeders and having them captively produced is not going to do >any harm, if anything, it'll probably help put less stress on >wild populations (i'm sure even with aussie's strong hold on >reptiles, some get through on the black market). Maybe they >are starting to get the idea.

I believe Australia will open up to export in the relatively near future, just as soon as they realize how well the current plans to export those certain few species is going to work, for all parties involved. It's just going to take a bit of time, but I have all the time in the world There are certainly a number of animals taken out illegally, which is a shame, but I think that will drastically decrease or stop completely as soon as they open.

>Maybe in '06 when your cannis are ready to breed, I'll sign >myself up for a neo...that would be awesome, as oxyuranus is >definately one of my favorite genus.

You'd be ever so more than welcome to do so. They are truly awesome snakes to deal with. I've had mine now since September of last year; it's amazing how much a person can learn about a species in even that short of an amount of time, if given the opportunity to observe them daily in person. Much to the dismay of many nay-sayers about keeping this species, I personally don't believe they are all that difficult, compared to say, Dendroaspis and even some Naja. These Oxies ride a hook quite well and never make any attempt to be aggressive outside of the cage. Inside, they, like many other snakes, will bluff and try to show their stuff, but it's mostly just show. It is pretty neat though to see them flatten the back of the head, arch the neck, and move ominously toward the front of the glass. Ballsy little snakes, I'll give them that. I have a feeling though that by the time they are large adults, they will be fairly placid and easy to deal with. The only thing I can personally recommend for this species is that when they get older, no matter how long you've had it, how much you trust it, how docile it appears, etc., gentle tongs will always be better than a hook when handling. The taipans, as well as many of the Aussie elapids, are known for their acrobatics, and I've heard more than one story of a taipan or brownsake doing a back flip while being tailed or hooked and tagging (or nearly so) the person handling it. For this reason it's best to get them used to tongs while young. They can be easy to handle with a hook when young, but occasionally using small tongs (Mighty Midgets for example, which is what I use) can only help in the long run.

>If you don't mind, around how much did you dish out for the >pair? I can imagine CB O.s.canni could command a pretty nice >price tag.

I don't mind at all. I paid $1500 shipped for this pair of canni. Some people have said I paid way too much, I think I may have paid too little because of the capabilities and reputation of taipans. I wouldn't mind at all seeing them listed for $2000/pr. If someone is going to dish out a really large amount of money for a snake, I believe that it helps ensure that the snake will receive good care and that the person buying it is knowledgable and not just buying on a whim. With Oxies, both aspects of the prospective keeper are of utmost importance.

>I think i saw your posts earlier about your canni's teeth >starting to grow through the bottom of their mouths, very >interesting stuff. Evolution at work? Maybe. Either way, >it's worth the documentation.

Evolution is always at work, in some form or another I believe that is certainly what this equates to: the taipans needing larger and larger fangs over the past number of thousands of years to better subdue prey. I believe it gives them a better competitive edge over the brownsnakes and such because of the relatively small fangs they have. Although browns and taipans are certainly capable of taking down their perspective prey, the taipans may have a slight edge over the browns in this aspect. I'm not an evolutionary biologist though, nor have I ever studied brownsnakes or taipans in the wild, so of course I can't make any of these inferences with any sort of backing. Just my opinion from my own observations and hypotheses.

>What else are you currently keeping/breeding besides the canni?

I used to have a large collection of Naja and had planned to try to put together as many pairs of Naja as possible. However, I recently decided to get into the retic market, so, needing more room, I liquidated the vast majority of my collection. Out of the venomous, I only kept the most valuable or the most unique, hence my venomous collection currently only consisting of the 1.1 taipans and my 1.1.1 boomslangs (pair of adults and one of the offspring left over from last year). I plan to continue working with the boomslangs, hopefully producing a larger clutch this year, and of course plan to breed the taipans. As for now, I can only really see myself adding other Australian/New Guinean elapids or other very unique elapids (Boulengerina, etc) to my collection.
-Chance

Chance,

Thanks for the info on taipans. Beautiful amazing creatures. I've also heard from some people that their reputation is really undeserved. That being said, being tagged by one can be the last mistake one makes. How much would one be looking at spending for 10 vials of Taipan antivenin? I know in some countries, like India, a polyvalent that cover naja and i think echis can be found for around $50/vial...i know CSL Taipan AV would probably be much much more though....

Just like Chance said about a pair of Taipans for 2,000.00. If someone puts out that kind of cash, he is knowledgeable enough to have them.
So in the same breath if you can invest $11,000.00 every 3 years for Antivenom you are knowledgable enough to keep them.
Unfortunately, MOST people can't afford that kind of cash, but they certainly seem to think they could afford to pay that money back to the institution that supplies the AV for a bite. Plus the tens of thousands of dollars for other medical services.
Kind of ironic huh? Oh well he's had them for 6 months and he's learned alot about 'em in that time. I wonder... have you learned (or told) whoever that you plan on using their serum?
Oh well....
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Terry, please stop trying to turn my words around. You know very well that what I stated is completely true. Of course stupid people can go blow thousands of dollars on an animal they know nothing about, but how often does that happen? Very rare, at best. If someone spends a huge amount of cash on an animal it's only common sense to assume that it is not an impulse buy and that they've done their research. It's also common sense to imagine that the snakes will be competently cared for. I don't know many bad keepers out there spending $2,000 on an albino retic and then giving it away to the local shelter like $50 normals. Anyway, I don't know why I'm even typing these words to you. They are just going to bounce off or be twisted around anyway. Now how about let's get back to the main point of this thread? Sound good? Or do you just wanna flame some more like usual?

AP, Terry is right about the cost of Australian AV to cover Oxyuranus. It's pretty expensive. Maybe with the gradual opening of Australia the price of the serum will go down. I guess we can only wait and see.
-Chance

you speak of common sense?
Wouldn't it also be common sense to have your own anti venom?
or is it common sense that tells you it's cheaper to use someone elses serum and endanger their lives?
Or is it common sense to think that you will never need said serum? since they are so easy to handle....for you anyway?
I'm sure my statements sound harsh Chance.
I do feel you are a well intentioned, enthusiastic individual for the snakes you keep. You are just going about things the wrong way. I keep telling myself to stop trying to convince you of that, but I keep seeing you say things that show your true inexperience. I'm not against you keeping snakes, I just don't like the fact that your closest source of serum is a very good friend of mine. But no worries, I notified him that he is supposed to supply you with serum should a bite occur. I also assured him that you can't afford the serum yourself, but you can afford to pay him back if said bite ever did occur.
one day you will see the wisdom of my words. And be able to look beyond the personal attack that you feel I'm giving you. Which I'm not, just words of harsh wisdom.
On an upbeat note, check back tomarrow evening, I'm picking up the snakes I told you about a few months back. Very exciting!
As long as there are no shipping screwups, I will post more.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

>>On an upbeat note, check back tomarrow evening, I'm picking up the snakes I told you about a few months back. Very exciting!
>>As long as there are no shipping screwups, I will post more.

Congratulations on the new acquisitions.
-Chance

>>Evolution is always at work, in some form or another I believe that is certainly what this equates to: the taipans needing larger and larger fangs over the past number of thousands of years to better subdue prey. I believe it gives them a better competitive edge over the brownsnakes and such because of the relatively small fangs they have. Although browns and taipans are certainly capable of taking down their perspective prey, the taipans may have a slight edge over the browns in this aspect. I'm not an evolutionary biologist though, nor have I ever studied brownsnakes or taipans in the wild, so of course I can't make any of these inferences with any sort of backing. Just my opinion from my own observations and hypotheses.

A lot of it probably has to do with prey choice - coastal and Papuan taipans seem to feed on relatively large mammals, and they often capture their prey using the same bite-release approach as used by many vipers. Long fangs wil be a selective advantage, since the snake needs to get the venom in very quickly. Basically, if you're gonna act like a viper, you better look like one. Most Pseudonaja eat a lot of reptiles and most likely smaller mammals (and I suspect that mammals would have featured even less in their diet before Homo sapiens brought his commensal rodents along), and bite and hold, so long fangs may not be such a selective advantage. This is to some extent speculative in that I don't have any hard data on prey size for Pseudonaja and taipans.

As far as antivenom is concerned, yes, it's very expensive pervial. However, unlike for CroFab or most other antivenoms, the vials are huge (40 or 50 mls, from memory), and you would most likely only need a vial or two for most bites, so it's not as bad as it looks. Getting nailed by a taipan would be a lot cheaper than getting nailed by an EDB!

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Taipan AV is 12,000 units of antivenom in 43 to 50 mL of aqueous solution.
Invitro, one 12,000 unit vial will neutralize the effects of an average yield of the venom, however clinically it normally requires far more. If AV is available readily, 3-4 vials is usually sufficient however up to 8 is not uncommon. In Papua N.G. one vial is the normal dose given from a Taipan bite. I think this is due to the high cost and low availability of the serum. One vial must neutralize the lethal effects of the venom? However due to the heamorrhagic efects and myolytic toxins, I would imagine recovery time and supportive care are greatly increased.
The aim of antivenom is to neutralize the venom, sufficient serum should be given to nertalise further spread of venom from the bite site.
There seems to be a large difference between the N.G. Browns and the Aussie Browns. The NG browns don't get nearly as large, fast or aggressive/defensive. The small fangs make penetrating a rodents fur very difficult. therefore constriction/holding of the prey item is required. Lizard prey is probably very common in the wild, as it would be easier to introduce the fangs.
My personal observation with numerous P textilis from NG is that they are either very irratic and clumsy when attacking a food item? Or are very deliberate in grabbing the animal to coil it and then re grabbing the animal (mouse) by the tail or feet, in order to bring the fangs into play?
Aussie Browns have a much larger size and I am not aware of a problem with this.
As far as taipans go, they have much larger fangs and penetration is not a problem for them, however it does not seem to be a very (relatively speaking) fast acting venom. Whereas vipers bite/release/wait/follow. Taipan/bite/follow/bite/ follow and bite again until the animal succombs.
Interesting stuff for sure!
TaPhillip
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

To "Chance", how one species goes compared to another goes way beyond mere size and food preferences (although you are probably aware of this already).
Variables that may be of relevance include things like habitat, other competing species, predatory species, habitat modification, diseases and/or resistance to them, nely introduced ferals and so on.
To cut a long story short, it appears from my own research spanning some decades, that the Brown Snakes (Pseudonaja) have not apparantly suffered to any major extent from Oxyuranus in most parts of mainland Australia. Notwithstanding this, there is a direct and strong correlation between the distribution of the larger King Brown snakes (of recent evolutionary origin) and the Taipans (as explained in some of my papers), the net result being that Taipans have contracted in the wake of this other species (genus?).
Hence not many Taipans where King Browns occur and plenty where they don't (as in southern New Guinea and east coastal areas of Qld).
What advantage the King Browns have over Taipans insn't certian (if any) and the idea that it is King Browns have effectively caused the decline of Taipans in some areas remains speculative, even though there is compelling evidence in this direction.
Finally, in terms of handling in the captive (pet) situation, Taipans tend to calm down and as a species (trend), Eastern Browns are far worse and less likely to calm down, although one I have here is happily free-handled, even on hot days!
ALL THE BEST
Taipan and Brown snake papers

>>Hence not many Taipans where King Browns occur and plenty where they don't (as in southern New Guinea and east coastal areas of Qld).

Could this be the result of direct predation by the king browns on the taipans? I saw a show not too long ago of a king brown consuming either a juvenile inland or juvenile coastal. I'm pretty sure it was an inland, which makes me think that the footage was likely rigged as there probably aren't too many king browns sharing habitat with inlands, though I could certainly be wrong. I'm not sure how much of the diet of the kings is made up of other snakes, but if they do frequently dine on the taipans, it may be a safe bet that, like many other species, the taipans have 'learned' to avoid areas of habitat occupied by the kings. Whatever the case, it is an interesting observation worth further notation.

>>Finally, in terms of handling in the captive (pet) situation, Taipans tend to calm down and as a species (trend), Eastern Browns are far worse and less likely to calm down

Interesting. I've never kept any of the Pseudonaja or Pseudechis, so I can't speak from a personal standpoint, though I have spoken with a few people who have kept or keep them. They all attested to the snakes' nasty attitudes and difficulty in handling. Of the three specimens of O. s. canni that I've kept, none of them have lived up to their reputation. The 7' male I had last year, despite being a recent import and more than a little nervous around people, was never any problem when being handled. These youngs ones aren't either, and are easily hooked and tailed or simply hooked. I must admit, it did surprise me somewhat to see how well they would ride a hook. If you see them in the enclosure, the speed at which they move would suggest otherwise. Anyway, thanks for the interesting points.
-Chance