Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Mr. Anaconda;

I have read your posts concerning your opinions on hybridization and morphing, most notably here and in the retic forum (where you were bashed for not supporting cross-breeding).

Now, I am a young reptile keeper but I have been doing this all my life. It is my passion. I visit the kingsnake.com forums nearly every day because I love learning how people care for thier snakes, and seeing how others view thier animals. Though I only post occasionally, I plan on attending the website for a long time.

One of the few things that does cause me to wonder about the morality of a lot of herp breeders is the issue of cross-breeding. I see that you have a passionate opposition to hybridization. I do too. I read your posts, and many other posts between people who hybridize and people who promote pure breeding. It seems to me that the cross-breeding bunch doesn't understand the true significance of every single batch of hybrids they produce. Most are not at all concerned with the future. But I have an example of a situation where hybridization has already affected the herp trade majorly.

Carpet pythons. It seems every show I go to has at least 2 or 3 vendoes selling jungle/coastal or jungle/irian jaya or jungle/diamond or whatever other crosses they desire to make with them. A lot of obvious crosses are sold as pure. This is especially true of coastals. It is hard for me to find an absolutely pure coastal these days. I suspect most, even in appearing as a pure animal, have jungle blood in them.

Now think 15, 20 years ago, when the prices of carpets was much higher. The first crosses produced were sold only to the few with an advantage- more money to invest into continuing cross-breeding. Even back then, no one thought about how this would affect the herp trade. These days any kid can attend a show or go to a pet store and buy pretty much any carpet they want to for a relatively low price. And it still disgusts me how people at the shows don't care. It is always about the money. At first, cross-breeding is always about being curious, and wanting money and recognition. but once the hybrid offspring become cheap, it's only about the money. Cross-breeders need all the money they can get for a common hybrid.

I stand with you on your issue of breeding Indians with Burmese only to make Indians more available. That is absurd. It's not making Indians more available, it's making Indian/Burm crosses more available.

Though I am less passionate about morphs, such as albinism and piebaldism (because they are still pure species), some of those just make me laugh. Breeders will produce anything different and sell it for a load of money only because of it. I understand the concept, I really do. Anything that rare is worth more than something more common. But to see all these breeders salivating for a snake that looks like it came from my rectum, well, it's just all too funny.

Sorry for the long post, I just thought about what you had revealed in several posts and decided I'd add my two cents in agreeing with you Unfortunately, cross-breeding will always continue to wreak havoc on the herp trade, and no matter how many times the cross-breeders say it won't affect the trade, it already has, to at least two people.

Thanks.

Joe
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2.2 Solomen Island ground boas
0.1 Solomen Island tree boa
1.0 green tree python
1.0 jungle carpet python
1.0 coastal carpet python
1.0 yellow anaconda
1.0 Boa constrictor imperator
0.1 Borneo short-tailed (blood) python

` Just because it's rare, so many people see dollar signs.
` People have always been that way.
` It's just that now, there are so many more people.
`
` Especially in the Boa constrictor ssps. To me, a Boa's pattern is beautiful. Some of these raggedy patterned, or broken stripe jobs look sad. I like pink Boas, but I'm not going to fall into someone's clutches who has a Boa that looks like it was hit by lightning, then run over by a car, and who says, " I've got the only one. If you want it, give me lots of dough".
` Also, all this crap about het for whatever. Anybody who falls for that stuff deserves to get taken.

` I do, however, really want a pair of dwarf, lavender, albino Retics, and will eventually get them.

` When I have baby snakes, I sell them for a low price, only to those who have the proper husbandry equipment, and the right attitude about the critters.
` You ought to see the reactions people have when told, "Nope, I'm not taking your $200, for this snake. I don't want it to be kept by you." Some really tweak. Their opinion is that their money qualifies them to take control over an animal's life, and that is the only qualification that counts. Crapola.

` Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. ( but I doubt it )
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It realy is sad. Its all about the money and bragging rights the only thing that I find funny about it is the names that people give these morphs. Sure there are some morphs that are natural but to repeatedly breed the off spring back to the parents is just plain wrong. As far as dfr's comment on getting those awsome looking retics and selling them cheap, I myself have contemlated doing the same thing. My "little" ball python has the albino jean in it. I was thinking of getting her a male and selling the off spring CHEAP. $75-$100 cheap. I now see that this kind of thing has jumped into the Anaconda's, High breed crosses, but this kind of cross happens in the wild. Does that justify a salty price tag??? or a granite yellow anaconda same price??? as beautiful as they are I myself will pay more for a quality, well raised and started snake from a SMART breeder that cares more about the individual snake than the price he can get out of it, such as Kelly Haller. I am so impressed the way he makes sure a reptile is eating several times and weaned from strange foods like fish or chicken and moved on to rats that I intend to buy one, cant wait. We need more breeders like Kelly in this hobbie.

....

I've been reading the questions and concerns about Hybrids and Morphs. I for one agree with the concerns voiced, I prefer to look at a natural representation of a species versus looking at some overly human-modified hybrid or morph.
However, this process does have a name: Domestication.

If you look at the hundreds of different breeds of domestic dog it becomes obvious this a human thing to do to animals which we keep close to ourselves. With dogs, the breeds were created through selective breeding in order for the animal to fulfill a specific purpose, or to enhance a specific behavioral trait.
With snakes, or reptiles in general selective breeding is being performed for the sake of pure visage alone. The prettier, or more unusual the snake, the more money in theory it can fetch.

In spite of the process, there is a benefit. Selectively bred reptiles will (with time) eventually be significantly different from their wild counterparts which means that civil laws will have to acknowledge these animals as domestic and not "Exotic". With the "wild animal" label dropped from a reptile, the ownership issue and legal problems associated with keeping these creatures will be diminished in some fashion.

The sad fact of the matter is, that it is very likely that some day not too far off in the future the reptiles we keep versus the animals in the wild will look (and act) very different.
I suppose in that future all the rage will be making our domestic snakes look as close to the wild ones as possible.

-Kit

n/p

a note on domestication...it is genetic change in a species due to its association with man....but in species like dogs, selection didn;t happen the way it does now way back when they were domesticated. Temperment--which animals could live with humans the best, were what was selected. Domestication was done long before any breeds were established and crossbreeding bagan to occur. And even now people are developing new 'breeds' by crossing others (there's some mini-husky thing in the works). Just by crossing snake species humans are not domesticating them--but if they are selecting for tamer animals or more colorful or whatevr and in so doing change the genetic makeup of the species (because all these differences have some genetic component and it you select for the phenotype you select for the genotype), then you have some 'domestication' don't know that snakes will ever be technically domesticated in the traditional sense....many species cannot be, even mammals. But I guess after all this explanation all I really will add is I think crossbreeding in snakes is a shame....why not try to highlight the best of the species, rather than 'import' your color/pattern/docility from another type. genetics are fun to play with and see what mutations pop up or crop out! but that takes too much time so go with the crossing to get 'changes' faster....humans love playing god

writes, and having writ, moves on. Nor all your piety not wit can lure it back to cancel half a line. Nor all your tears wash out a word of it.

` ` Don't you think that a passive part of selective breeding is for temperament?
` I think that people were more likely to breed the more tame and gentle individuals, in the early stages of captive breeding.
` Sure, nowadays many are into breeding for physical traits that they hope will make money. Especially with certain species. I recently handled a beautifully pied Ball Python, who wanted only to kill me. Like pretty people, they can get away with murder.
` Forty years ago, most of the snakes available were traumatized field collected animals. Many of those who might have been mild mannered got to be nasty from the conditions imposed on them by capture, shipping, and holding.
` In those days, we looked to buy snakes that would allow us to get near them. If it was healthy, or potentially so, the behavior of the animal was the deciding factor. You often had to judge whether the snake was mellow by choice, or because it was weakened by stress or disease. I nursed several back to health who, when they got strong, were really nasty.
` I have seen many examples of Boids which were "domesticated". That is, able to accept the conditions of captivity, rather than react against them. Also, willingly allowing natural behavior patterns to be modified, in order to adapt to an artificial situation. There are many of those, who get too comfortable in captivity, get fat, and die of it. What better proof is there, of a wild animal accepting captivity?
` To the other point: Have we not not become part of these snakes' evolution? Humans have become the deciding factor in so many species' evolution by making them extinct. Some others, by endangering them, then saving them, like the California Condor, although their fate is far from decided. This process, of humans interfering in the evolution of so many species, is so far advanced that bemoaning it doesn't really do much good. I think the step has already been made. Now, we should try to do the best with what we have started. There ain't no going back.

` Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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