Reptile & Amphibian Forums

in reply to anacondakeepers messages below i decided to start my own thread about morphs.

if it wasn't for morphs in the pet business (herp,dog,cat,horse, or any species with breeds or morphs) i really dont think as many people would have pets. In the herp business morphs is what brings people to be interested in herps, ie. the albino burmese. Morphs are the reason I started being interested in herps with my purchase of an albino leopard gecko. Morphs and breeds are the same thing. They are just different pattern and color mutations. But with morphs it is better, because to get a morph you really only need to inbreed for 2 or 3 generations to get a good amount of the specific morph. But with dog, cat, and horse breeds you need to inbreed for many generations to get that perfect breed, that is why in purebred dogs, cats, and horses there are many genetic defects going on although it is most prominant in dogs. Morphs are the animals that catch your eyes in the pet store windows. A normal leopard gecko is very boring to look at IMO but an albino leo are extremely interesting to look at because of their pattern and color differences. Animal rights groups such as the PETA and HSUS will have a harder time enforceing their injust views on the reptile industry because of the increasing amount of interest in morphs. The albino burmese python is one of the most interesting and beautiful looking animals ever, how many of you can walk past one in a pet shop and not be amazed? it is nearly impossible, even for a person scared of snakes not to be amazed. When albino varieties of boas and pythons start to decrease to under $200 the popularity of snakes as pets will SKYROCKET. If no one bred morphs i really dont think many people would breed snakes at all because of EXTREMELY high importation rates. Even with the amount of BP breeders in the US and other countries there are still thousands of BP's being imported into the US each year. That rate has decreased considerably because of people wanting to breed snakes.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

You have completely missed the point of being in the hobby (or in my case, profession). NO, IT IS NOT ABOUT MORPHS...far from it. In my opinion, it is the "morph" market that has literally ruined the hobby. Way back in the day of Karl Kaufeld's "Snakes, The Keeper and the Kept" book (a book that every serious reptile person should own), keeping a snake as simple as a good looking corn snake was a magical experience. A ball python was EXTREME. There was far more emphasis on learning how to keep these animals on a long term basis, learning about their natural history, appreciating the habitat that they call home, understanding what makes them tick, enjoy just watching them show their amazing behaviors in naturalistic set ups. Now, herps are nothing more than disposable "investments" destined to the "rack" (and nothing against racks, in some instances, they serve as valuable tools for rearing certain species); very, very sad in my opinion. To say that a normal leopard gecko is BORING is absolutely ludicrous! The intricacies of their patterns and color tones (if you actually take time to look at them!) are exquisite and far more beautiful than a genetically defected albino. I could go ON AND ON AND ON about why your comments are so far off base, but I will only get into a shouting match with someone who doesn't quite get it. Sorry for being so direct...you really struck a cord in me.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreaion

AND HOME TO SEVERAL BEAUTIFUL NORMAL LOOKING BURMESE PYTHONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps there is some gray area in the middle of these two extreme ends of the spectrum of this argument. I really don't see anything wrong with keeping, breeding, or promoting both types of reptiles,.. morphs or "normals".

In addition to a vast variety of morphs I keep normal boas of different species, normal ball pythons, and normal colubrids such as milks and even a regular old gopher snake. I love and appreciate each and every one of my animals, regardless of market value or what they can or will make me in terms of profit.

I recently have been spending a lot more time the past few weeks with a little baby pueblan milksnake that is a problem feeder, than with most of my high end morphs put together. He is a very reluctant feeder and he even almost died. I know that if I didn't take particular care to ensure that he eat that he most certainly would have died.

Now,.. it doesn't matter to me that he is only worth 50 bucks. To me he is a beautiful little guy that I am responsible for. I produced him so it is my responsibility to make sure that he feeds and is housed properly and eventually is placed in a caring home in the hands of a responsible keeper that loves him. He could be worth a dollar and it would be the same to me.

But none of this means that the morphs aren't great snakes too. There's something for everyone this way, and a lot in between. (I wrote a related post in the retic forum on morphs and inbreeding and gene pools that you may want to read and comment on Rob)

Like many other subjects there is a lot more to this subject than just what is on the surface. Like alternatives to captive breeding to supply the ever growing reptile trade market which is usually mass importation. I am very much against mass importation practices and would like to see a stop put to it. I like what designer morphs have done for the overall public idea of reptile value. I think it has increased overall awareness and has increased the general value of many animals, including normals.

In the 70's baby pythons averaged about 80 to 100 dollars here in California. They (pythons) became very popular throughout the 80's and the resulting demand caused mass importation. This resulted in a lot of sick, diseased and aggressive snakes ending up in captivity. There were a number of people breeding the snakes, but nothing was so convenient as importing hundreds at a time.

The prices in many pet shops went up to a staggering 200 to 300 per baby in the mid 80's through the late 80's. For a while mass importation and private breeding mostly kept up with the demand and the market value held fairly steadily. But then several things happened/occurred simultainiously during that period of time (85-90).....

The first thing that happened was that many many people, (including me),.. common herpers,.. learned just how easy it was/is to breed their pets. It happened almost overnight, but what was once considered difficult scientific work (breeding) was as simple as placing a couple of snakes together. I was breeding,.. every friend of mine that kept snakes was breeding,. everyone that they knew was breeding. Everyone had the same idea at the same time pretty much and no one had the insight to see that the market would have serious limitations.

Another thing that was happening simultaneously was an ever growing explosion of interest in different python and boa species from different places. During this time the common herper was not limited to the old notion of only getting a burmese, a boa or a ball python. Now everyone was wanting the surinames, the dumerils, the amazons, etc, etc, etc....

So while there was never a reduction of boa and burmese importations there was a sudden demand for all these various "other species" and a resulting explosion in importing these. What this resulted in was a greatly reduced market for what was already over imported and what everyone was breeding. The end result,.. a great flood of unwanted burmese and colombian boas. I saw the prices go from a 150 dollar average to under 30 in the span of 5 years.

Fortunately most people stopped breeding them and the numbers balanced out a bit. Now I see normal burms up around 80 to 100 again and I am pleased to see this.

Now I am seeing the same thing happening with ball pythons that happened with the burms and boas. I am very much against these people that import 5000 balls at $8 ea so that they can pick out the 50 weirdest to breed into the next 10 ball morphs and freezing the rest to sell as cobra food. It's appauling and something I will never be a part of.

Anyway,.. there are many aspects of this. I really don't see it ever being just black or white.

>>You have completely missed the point of being in the hobby (or in my case, profession). NO, IT IS NOT ABOUT MORPHS...far from it. In my opinion, it is the "morph" market that has literally ruined the hobby. Way back in the day of Karl Kaufeld's "Snakes, The Keeper and the Kept" book (a book that every serious reptile person should own), keeping a snake as simple as a good looking corn snake was a magical experience. A ball python was EXTREME. There was far more emphasis on learning how to keep these animals on a long term basis, learning about their natural history, appreciating the habitat that they call home, understanding what makes them tick, enjoy just watching them show their amazing behaviors in naturalistic set ups. Now, herps are nothing more than disposable "investments" destined to the "rack" (and nothing against racks, in some instances, they serve as valuable tools for rearing certain species); very, very sad in my opinion. To say that a normal leopard gecko is BORING is absolutely ludicrous! The intricacies of their patterns and color tones (if you actually take time to look at them!) are exquisite and far more beautiful than a genetically defected albino. I could go ON AND ON AND ON about why your comments are so far off base, but I will only get into a shouting match with someone who doesn't quite get it. Sorry for being so direct...you really struck a cord in me.
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreaion
>>
>>AND HOME TO SEVERAL BEAUTIFUL NORMAL LOOKING BURMESE PYTHONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----
Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

The problem I have with the Morph driven boa/python industry is
that these are living animals not disposable, designer sports
cars.

Everyone wants the newest, coolest 'morph' but what happens to
all the older more normal boas and pythons?

Who do you think is spending money every year to get the newest
morphs? I think they are probably people/kids with some
boa and python experience, that means that they probably had or
have normal boas and pythons. These are now worth less money,
and apparently to many consumers are no where near as pretty or
interesting as the stylish newer morphs.
What is happening to them?

I agree about this not being an entirely black and white issue.
If people are buying these new morphs then there must be a
demand. It seems to me that most of the people buying pricey
morphs buy them intending to breed and sell and turn a profit.

I think that the vast majority of the "latest morphs" or the newest high end thing are purchased by herpers that either already ARE reptile breeders,.. or herpers that have a some vision and see this as the best way to successfully BECOME a reptile breeder. The first year or two the prices are always incredibly high. Those willing to pay (speaking from experience) know that they will likely be producing offspring while the prices are still relatively high (the first 8 or 10 years) and will have a nice return on their investment. By the time that the prices reach a lower, yet still high price, these snakes appeal to consumers that are willing to pay more for something a lot "rarer" or out of the norm. I think that this and anything like it that makes reptiles more popular in ANY way is a wonderful thing. Sure a lot of this is about making a living. Sure. This is America after all. The same can be said about one who breeds and produces 4 dollar garter snakes. Sure there is business interwoven into a lot of it. But there is also the overwhelming aspect that it is also about the passion of the hobby and the love of the reptiles.

*Most* breeders love the snakes that they breed and what they do for a living. I know this because I have been in this hobby for 30 years and first began breeding in the early 80's and have known a LOT of breeders in that time.

Sure some were loathsome scum that cared only about the money they would make and almost had a complete disregard for the snakes themselves. But these practices usually always fail and breeders like that give up and move on at the first sign of failure. Anyone that has tried to breed should know what I'm talking about when I say that there is usually a WHOLE LOT OF FAILURE before a lot of success.

I knew one guy a few years back,.... this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about,... he was/is a really good guy, in terms of what kind of person he is, etc. The guy is very religious, honest, proper, etc. But he had zero experience with keeping reptiles and he lacked an overall respect for snakes as living creatures. He cared only about the money he would make and that is what did him in.

He bought a dozen or so large albino boas or boas 100% het for albino when another breeder sold his stock and after hearing what they were going for on the market and how easy they were to breed. His wife doesn't like snakes so he had to place them in a steel shed in his back yard (first mistake). Knowing next to nothing about snakes I think he figured they would be okay if they were sheltered.

Now,.. he was expecting them to breed and begin kicking out babies like slot machines right away, since he housed them all together(second mistake). The cage quickly got filthy but he rarely ever cleaned it out(third mistake). Now, during the winter and then spring that shed went through some pretty extreme temperature fluctuations. Some of the snakes died. People tried to tell him what he was doing wrong, but nice as he was/is, he wasn't/isn't very open to criticism. He wouldn't listen to advice (fourth mistake). When some of the snakes died he replaced them with other het boas obtained elsewhere (i don't know who he got them from) and simply put them in the big main tank (fifth mistake). Well one of the new snakes had mites and it wasn't long before there was an extreme mite infestation. All of the snakes began to show symptoms of being sick but he wouldn't take them to a vet (sixth mistake). So now none of the snakes were eating, they were living in massive amounts of feces and they were all sick and mite infested. They began dropping off like flies. He finally decided to sell them (his first wise decision). A close friend of mine bought the remaining boas for a fairly good price and attempted to save these snakes. Only one 10 foot het female survived.

Now this guy is the "Nightmare Breeder" at one end of the spectrum. He didn't know squat about snakes and was not overly willing to learn if it meant admitting he was doing it incorrectly. He lost massive amounts of money since money was his only goal and he was blinded to anything else, and many snakes suffered and died. I truly despise breeders like this. Thankfully they are a minority and they usually don't last long before they give up. Unfortunately snakes suffer and die in the interim.

The vast majority of breeders love the snakes and love the hobby and care where their snakes go, I feel confident to say.

In the past 30 years I have only seen this hobby grow. The interest in reptiles has only grown and I am pleased that morphs target a whole new genre` of herper. I certainly don't think that most people that buy a high end morph as a pet or an addition to their collection would automatically neglect or ignore another pet of lesser value. Some may, but I feel this is likely the lowest percentile of the herp community. I'd have to say that *most* people that own a common boa or python, but can afford a 3000 dollar albino ball, likely has the boa and/or python because they love them. It wouldn't be due to economics I don't think.

Anyhow,.. sorry for the long rant.

>>The problem I have with the Morph driven boa/python industry is
>>that these are living animals not disposable, designer sports
>>cars.
>>
>>Everyone wants the newest, coolest 'morph' but what happens to
>>all the older more normal boas and pythons?
>>
>>Who do you think is spending money every year to get the newest
>>morphs? I think they are probably people/kids with some
>>boa and python experience, that means that they probably had or
>>have normal boas and pythons. These are now worth less money,
>>and apparently to many consumers are no where near as pretty or
>>interesting as the stylish newer morphs.
>>What is happening to them?
>>
>>I agree about this not being an entirely black and white issue.
>>If people are buying these new morphs then there must be a
>>demand. It seems to me that most of the people buying pricey
>>morphs buy them intending to breed and sell and turn a profit.
>>
>>
>>
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

True: If morphs were reintroduced into the wild they would likely not survive because of the loss of their natural camouflage.
True: A real herper loves their animals regardless of new morphs. I have a normal ball, and I would LOVE to get a striped or albino. However, supposing I did get one of these morphs, I wouldn't throw Bahamut out the window and let him fend for himself, because I LOVE my SNAKE, not my snake's DESIGN. The design is just ONE attractive aspect, not the ONLY attractive aspect.
True: Herping was much different back when having a ball python was an extreme reptile. Since that time, as has been sad many a time on this thread, the hobby has only grown, and exponentially at that. It is merely changing directions and opening a new world of possibilities.
There are some that look at this as a change that is "destroying the hobby", those people are close minded and unwilling to adapt to change, I'm afraid to say. However those that support it see it as more of an ENHANCEMENT of a hobby. We need not look at this as an evil thing. We have learned to adapt to our herp's needs (that's the whole point of this forum!) and wish to enjoy them in ways unimaginable 30 years ago, but we don't stop CARING for our precious babies (I know I don't and can't). If you still do not agree then I hope you will at the very least leave morphers alone, and likewise towards the anti-morphers.

you missed my point. I agree with you that getting into herps just for morphs is bad, and i wish i was old enough to remember when there was almost no such thing as morphs but sadly that isn't the case (only 13). My point i was trying to make was that if no one ever caught and reproduced a morph of any species the herp industry wouldn't be such a great place. Morphs are what catch the peoples (not very interested in herps)eyes at the pet store, they are the things that make people (not very interested in herps) stop and look at the herps instead of buying fish food. The morphs are what keep people interested in stead of walking by, they are the bait to people and the actual hobby is the catch. Almost every time I go to a pet store i see people staring at the herps, mainly the albino varieties of colubrids. People are amazed by the color. The difference between a normal and a color morph most people can tell the difference easily, even those who aren't very interested in herps. Morphs are the advertisements for the herp industry, they catch your eye and attention long enough so you become interested in herps.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 normal ball python (felix)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

Actually, I think you missed Rob's point. People were keeping these animals before there were any morphs and are still in love with the normal phases of these animals. I will grant that many morphs are very attractive, but that hardly makes them the reason the hobby has grown. The hobby is a great place because of these people who fell in love with normal phase animals and strove to care for them in captivity...including breeding. They made it possible for more of us interested in these animals to obtain and raise them. If not for those pioneers in herp keeping, there would be no hobby for morphs to be developed in. I am old enough and been in the hobby long enough (keeping since 1991) to remember when it was still breathtaking to see normal boas and pythons in all their natural glory. There are so many colors and patterns of normal phase animals that it's not likely people would get bored without morphs (out of 28 snakes I own, only 3 are color morphs and 1 is a potential pattern morph). The morphs are beautiful, and I enjoy many of them just as much as my normals, but they are hardly the only thing that makes the hobby successful. People dedicated to their animals and in the hobby for the love of the animals themselves are what makes the hobby. The person who walks by a cage and sees an animal because it's flashy are not necessarily the ones who will give the animal a good home...impulse buys are best left to inanimate objects in the grocery line and not an animal that needs your care and commitment.

Raven

I don't think anyone missed Rob's point. It's a valid point, only it's a bit extreme to ever say that the morphs are somehow ruining the hobby. I think if anyone's point was missed it was lilroaches point. It's not that new varieties of snake morphs only appeal to "impulse buyers" that are sure to neglect them once the novelty wears off. I would think that 30 dollar normals would more fall into this catagory (unfortunately) because they are cheap and therefore expendable.

No,.. I tend to think that with new morphs emerging there is more of a variety that will appeal to many more people and the geometric effect of growing interest in reptiles only expands into areas of society that it may not have reached otherwise. It's ripples in a pond. I don't think it's unrealistic to think that someone who has walked by the same type colombian boas in the pet shop for 30 years suddenly sees a purple phase albino reticulated python and says "I have just GOT to have one of those!" Not to downplay the colombian boa's beauty. I'm not. I personally find them beautiful and I have about 20 of them right now and am expecting 2 clutches (I only allow two to breed each year). The cool thing about the "normal" boas or the "normal" burmese (which I don't personally consider "normal" at all mind you) is that there will ALWAYS be a large percentage of herpers that will forever find them beautiful and unique. Each and every year I see new herpers emerge and buy their first boa and I see the sparkle in their eye the same as some herpers I sell to that are in their 30's or 40's buying their 50th boa. Morphs or no morphs there will always be these herpers that cherish these "normal" boas. So I certainly do not think that one catagory of reptile will be overshadowed and "replaced" by another catagory. No, I feel that there will at the very least be 3 main catagories: Those that prefer and stick to the "normal" breeds and forms, Those that keep both normals AND morphs, And those that keep mainly morphs. Any which way you look at it there is something for everyone and a market for every snake.

>>Actually, I think you missed Rob's point. People were keeping these animals before there were any morphs and are still in love with the normal phases of these animals. I will grant that many morphs are very attractive, but that hardly makes them the reason the hobby has grown. The hobby is a great place because of these people who fell in love with normal phase animals and strove to care for them in captivity...including breeding. They made it possible for more of us interested in these animals to obtain and raise them. If not for those pioneers in herp keeping, there would be no hobby for morphs to be developed in. I am old enough and been in the hobby long enough (keeping since 1991) to remember when it was still breathtaking to see normal boas and pythons in all their natural glory. There are so many colors and patterns of normal phase animals that it's not likely people would get bored without morphs (out of 28 snakes I own, only 3 are color morphs and 1 is a potential pattern morph). The morphs are beautiful, and I enjoy many of them just as much as my normals, but they are hardly the only thing that makes the hobby successful. People dedicated to their animals and in the hobby for the love of the animals themselves are what makes the hobby. The person who walks by a cage and sees an animal because it's flashy are not necessarily the ones who will give the animal a good home...impulse buys are best left to inanimate objects in the grocery line and not an animal that needs your care and commitment.
>>
>>Raven
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.