Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, this is purely hypothetical, but not at all impossible.

There are many types of chemicals classified as hallucinogens. These are chemicals that typically resemble seratonin (LSD, psilocybin, psilocyn, mescaline, DMT, etc.) and are alkaloids. All are organic, and most derived or extracted directly from living creatures or plants. Their effects on the human (and presumably animal) brain manifest themselves in many ways, with distortion/enhancement of vision, visual/aural hallucinations, tracers, mental confusion, etc. Let's take DMT (Di-methyltryptamine) for example, and because if their were a venomous snake that injected a hallucinogen into it's victims, this would probably be the hallucinogen. This compound is orally inactive because it is broken down by the MAO enzyme in your stomach. The only way it can become orally active is through taking an MAO inhibitor (MAOI). That's beside the point. However, when smoked, or injected (intraveiniously, but i'm sure IM or subcutainuously would also produce effects) it's effects are immediate and incredibly powerful. Most people who have experienced this substance claim that reality as we know it is instantly transformed into one big hallucination. The effects are rather short lived, usually the peak of the experience is over within 5-10 min, gradually subsiding to normality within 30 min. This would obviously give a snake enough time to escape after biting and disorienting a predator. It would take a large dose of DMT to kill a person, or possibly an animal therefore our hypothetical snake at least uses constriction to some degree (some australian elapids are known to both envenomate and constrict their prey). Now here's why this scenario is not far fetched at all:

DMT is present in many different animals and plants, including humans. DMT is found in human spinal fluids in minute amounts. Some people feel that schizophrenia and other mental diseases could be caused to some degree by an imbalance of the bodie's natural hallucinogens...Now some plants and animals use this substance as a weapon. The Sonoran desert toad (Bufo alvarius) contains up to 15% 5-MeO DMT (a related compound even stronger than DMT) in it's venom that it secretes from it's skin. If you've ever heard of people licking toads to get high, this is where that came from. This is slightly wrong though, because licking it could kill you. The method of ingesting the toad venom is to milk the toad (by massaging it's warts), dry the venom, and smoke it. Regardless, the point is that animals already use hallucinogens as a defense. Would it be so far-fetched to think that hallucinogens could find their way into snake venom somewhere along the evolutionary ladder? Anyway, this is just a hypothetical question i posed because i'm bored, Information DMT and other drugs can be found at
http://www.erowid.org if you are interested. I in no way endorse drug use, but I do endorse open-mindedness. This is simply a question i posed melding two of my interests into one weird question Any thoughts or insights would be welcomed.

AP

I meant the toad secretes poison, not venom...of course you have to eat or lick or something to that nature the toad to suffer any symptoms...

Isn't the latter of the two a product of digestion of the former? I mean, take away a phosphate group or two, and the hallucinogenic compound remaining is psilocyn? Its been a few years since i've paid attention to those types of processes, but please, correct me if i'm wrong, and provide references.

creep

Psilocybin is converted to psilocyn in the body, but psilocyn also occurs naturally in Psilocybe sp. fungi. Psilocyn is extremlely fragile however, and is almost completely destroyed by drying and exposure to light and oxygen. This is the reason some Psilocybe mushrooms bruise blue when molested. Consuming fresh mushrooms will produce a much stronger experience because both psilocybin and psilocyn are effecting you, not just psilocybin. But yes, you are correct about psilocyn being a product of the metabolization of psilocybin.

AP

Read the book on Bill Haast "Cobra's in his Garden" and tell me that his experiences with Krait venom aren't in some ways identical with some entheogens!!! Or in "Snakes: the Keeper and the Kept" where there is the brief discussion of the cobra envenomation producing a very pleasant lethargy... I'm actually in the process of preparing a lecture right now on the Sacred Serpent and I'm about 95% convinced that some of the historical reverence of some serpents may have been related to a conciousness altering property in some of their venoms. Bryan Fry et. al. also just discovered the presence of 3 finger neurotoxins in many rat snake species. Now I know that the effective delivery method isn't there but if you consider how inclined our ancestors were toward messing with herbs and animals and such it isn't a far leap to see the Aesculapian snake (healing symbol) having some early scientific medical use. Then think about the current few folks who practice self-innoculation with venom and wonder if perhaps some Egyptian Priests and Pharohs weren't doing the same thing and "tripping" off of it (Any self-innoculators out there willing to speak up either way?). I'm sorry for the ramble but right now you've actually hit on my main focus of inquiry and I would LOVE any further info anyone may have to either support or refute my thesis.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

Thanks for replying. I've heard similar accounts of various neurotoxic envenomations resulting in a euphoric state, with mental confusion, vision disturbances, etc. I don't think a cobra bite could induce the spiritual aspects of many entheogens like mescaline or psilocybin (unless praying for your life counts ), but at least some similarities are there. It's funny, because this was just something i thought about randomly, and i didn't think someone would be writing a paper on it! I'd be very interested to see what you find.

AP

I was bitten by a northern pacific and I deffinatley hallucinated. Things changed colors and I saw what looked like people moving around out of the corners of my eyes but there was nobody there.

Jeremy

Peter Kurnor was bitten in south Africa by a albino Naja naja and had the most vivid stories from his hosp[ital stay. He said after waking up from the coma (7 days) that he thought the nurses and doctors were trying to kill him. He said that he saw them infecting his injections with AIDS and trying, with help from the secret police of the apartheid regime, to infect him. It got so bad that at one stage he tried to slit his wrists in hospital....10 days after the bite. Eventually, about a month after the bite, he went home, but could not enter his house and sat crying on the front steps for hours, unable to enter. He eventually recovered, but and interesting side note is that he was bitten by a Skaapsteker (Psammophylax rhombeatus) a few months later and according to him though he was going to die from a panic attack (hyperventilating, chest pain, nausea, weakness etc).