Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The person who formulated the diets and oversees the manufacture of the products has responded:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=395719,397361
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

I've recently ordered a bunch of the Dragon Dust. Without reading the entire post below, did you determine that pellets are not to be used with the dust? Or is that a question still outstanding?

Mike

>>I've recently ordered a bunch of the Dragon Dust. Without reading the entire post below, did you determine that pellets are not to be used with the dust? Or is that a question still outstanding?
>>
>>Mike

It is still "outstanding", but I use rep cal pellets daily on top of all my salads and I also dust those salads daily with the dragon dust. I think the main problem is when people are using a seperate calcium and multi vitamin in addition to the dragon dust.
I have not seen any "ill effects" and would be the first to mention them here if I did (or do)
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

Mike,
I tried to answer the question bellow. I feel that it would be fine to use a pellet product in conjuntion with salads dusted with the t-rex foods. My logic behind this is that just like the dusts, pellets are a whole food, and as such should not effect the overall ratio of nutrients when added. The addition of a pure vitamin or calcium supplement would effect the salad supplemented with the dusts, because it is pure product and concentrated. Does that make any sense?
Good Luck

>>I've recently ordered a bunch of the Dragon Dust. Without reading the entire post below, did you determine that pellets are not to be used with the dust? Or is that a question still outstanding?
>>
>>Mike
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

If pellets are stated to have all the nutrients, calcium and vitamins that are needed, this products also says it has that, and if using this along with supplement are not advised (even though people on here were advised that)would not that be giving the animals too much? No matter what form it is in?

I think there is a serious problem brewing in so many products available that state they contain all needed nutrients, combining them with others that state that also contain all needed.

If I remember correctly, you always advise others Calcium with D3 was all that was needed and could replace UVB. Now you state that all that is needed is Dragon Dust...... so I guess you have changed your advice and not only I, but other's misunderstood you, that followed advice?

Correct me if I am hearing you wrong, now your saying that all they need is Dragon Dust and NO UVB, you don't use Calcium with D3 supplements anymore? But adding another product that claims "fortified with optimal levels of vitamins and minerals like calcium and vitamin D3 so no other food supplements are required" is okay to add with the Dragon Dust too??? But not additional supplement of Calcium with D3

And we wonder why new people are confused!

Toss that in with another poster that states Dragon Dust only has 1/10th the amount of Calcium that Rep_Cal Calcium with D3 does that has been recommeneded and used for years... it gets real confusing for people!
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www.reptilerooms.com

I will only speak for the rep-cal pellets, because I know the person that formulated it and I trust that formulation. If you have a salad that has been dusted with the vmf, and we just consider calcium and d3 for the sake of this thread, there will about 2.5 % calcium added to the salad. This will be close to the total amount of calcium in the salad, because the veggies are mostly water. You will also be adding some d3 to the salad. The dust contains 4000 I.U./kilo., so depending how much you use, your adding a small amount of d3. Now if you add some rep-cal pellets to that salad, you are not adding to the total amount of nutrients in the salad, the whole mix becomes homogenous. It will just skew the percentages of nutrients slightly. I can't think of any other way to put it. For example, lets assume the pellets have the same percentages of calcium and d3 as the dust, your not affecting the percentages of those nutrients in the salad mix at all then. Now if someone feeds dusted(with t-rex)salads one day and feeds pellets the next, it's really the same thing, both are balanced foods.

"If I remember correctly, you always advise others Calcium with D3 was all
that was needed and could replace UVB. Now you state that all that is
needed is Dragon Dust...... so I guess you have changed your advice and not
only I, but other's misunderstood you, that followed advice?"

I still advice that uvb is not needed as long as dietary d3 is present. If someone uses a protocol of rep-cal w d3 and herptivite, that's fine. If they choose to use the t-rex products as the bottle instructs, that's fine too. So let me spell this out more clearly. If you are using the t-rex products, you should be using them as directed in the bottles, that is every food item should be dusted at every feeding whether it is a veggie or a bug. In this scenario you SHOULD NOT be using other vitamin or mineral supps. If you choose to just add it once and a while(for what ever reason) plus still use your old standby, then you are adding chance to a nutrient balanced product and maybe you should stick to the old supplemnts with their recommended schedules until your ready for the switch. I'm sorry if I previously confused anyone.

"Correct me if I am hearing you wrong, now your saying that all they need is
Dragon Dust and NO UVB, you don't use Calcium with D3 supplements
anymore?"

Yes, I would say that is correct. I don't feel ther is a need for uvb lighting when using the t-rex dust as directed. I have stopped using other supps. months ago.

"But adding another product that claims "fortified with optimal
levels of vitamins and minerals like calcium and vitamin D3 so no other
food supplements are required" is okay to add with the Dragon Dust too???"

Assuming the product you mention is rep-cal pellets, yes, I'm saying it is not a problem to add that.

"But not additional supplement of Calcium with D3"

No, there should not be additional vitamin or calcium supplemtation when following the descibed feeding schedule.

"Toss that in with another poster that states Dragon Dust only has 1/10th the
amount of Calcium that Rep_Cal Calcium with D3 does that has been
recommeneded and used for years... it gets real confusing for people!"

Well, the ICB does have close to about a tenth of the calcium as repcal with d3. It contain max of 16% (ok, closer to a fifth) calcium, repcal is pure product it is almost 100% calcium and would be if the d3 was not in it. Again, If you are using the t-rex products as directed, this does not matter. Again I want to stress, If you have the t-rex products and you are using them, you need to use them as directed and not use additional supplements. I hope this post helps clarify things a bit. I really want to work towards fixing any confusion. I know that not everyone agrees with my husbandry, but at least we can work on clarifying what advice I give for those interested. As for those that might be confused by a post I make, I encourage you to let it be known so that it can be addressed either by email or here.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

for the sake of this discussion.

If a dragon is under good UVB light, so he is producing D3, getting a diet rich in greens that are high in Calcium so that D3 has calcium to absorb, AND adding pellets that contain calcium with D3 and AND adding dragon dust (that has all needed supplements) Isn't there a risk that they are getting too much?

Also, I am real confused and from emails so are some others, a few that thought they were following your advice and have problems.......

Is this post in error figures?
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=379722,379841

If not in error, then the dragons are cut down to 10% of the supplemented calcium they were getting and you use to advise?
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www.reptilerooms.com

"If a dragon is under good UVB light, so he is producing D3, getting a diet rich in greens that are high in Calcium so that D3 has calcium to absorb, AND adding pellets that contain calcium with D3 and AND adding dragon dust (that has all needed supplements) Isn't there a risk that they are getting too much?"

No, I don't think in this case they would be getting to much. If they were to throw other SUPPLEMENTS(i.e vitamin and mineral supps.) there is a risk that it could then be too much. I also feel it would not make a difference if you were to remove the uvb light from the mix.

"Also, I am real confused and from emails so are some others, a few that thought they were following your advice and have problems......."

If you going to make a statement like this, could you spell it out for me. Tell me exactly which advice they are confused about and give me some posts I made that some have suggested to you they are confused about. I don't have a problem trying to clarify what I may have said.

"Is this post in error figures?
>>forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=379722,379841"

Actually, I think it is in error. If the same .15g pinch were repcal, it would be 150mg of calcium not the 45mg she mentioned. Her other calculation seems fine to me.

"If not in error, then the dragons are cut down to 10% of the supplemented calcium they were getting and you use to advise?"

What did I use to advise, specifically? Do you mean the use of rep-cal calcium, or miner-all I? If so, where did I ever mention that it should be used daily at every feeding? The t-rex dusts are fomulated for daily use and should be used this way. If you do use it the this way, your dragons will get all the calcium they need.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

First off, I do not agree with the above PERIOD, and I think it misleads others to think "more is better routine" and to take some risk with their animals that is not something new people( even expereinced on some of it) should be following

To answer your question:
What did I use to advise, specifically? Do you mean the use of rep-cal calcium, or miner-all I? If so, where did I ever mention that it should be used daily at every feeding?

Since you can not remember the advice you gave, I am glad I saved it, you said this is a new person:

"You can ditch the undertank heater. Just put a flat rock under the heat lamp. No need for a UV bulb, just make sure to dust your insects with a calcium supp. WITH d3. Mineral-I or rep-cal are both good supps.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com"

I remember this well and I saved it at that time, because later in that thread, you also said a year from now we will all be saying Bill was right. I knew we would NOT be saying that, and most likely from past experiences, new people would be having problems and in case you forgot or denied saying it I would have it to refer back to.

Now your saying in current post, this is not your current advice, you changed several months ago, but forgot to mention that when you started telling others to use Dragon Dust, but that is cleared up now and people are advised not to use both. Thats okay too, people do change their husbandry at times and we all hope it would be for the better.

YOU NOW SAY:

"NO UVB source is needed by bearded dragons and that using dragon dust is all that is needed." I was not aware that the makers of this make this claim and that WILL be checked out so others are not mislead and the companies position is VERY clear for me and others.

Then to complicate things more,and I am having a hard time understanding, you say this is correct... almost:

I took a big pinch of the VGF and weighed it it was 0.15g. The bottle says that the min Ca is 2.8% and the max Ca is 3.2% so we will say it is about 3%. That would be 3g per 100g of product. Therefore, each feeding you are giving (IF your dragon eats the entire big pinch) 0.0045g or 4.5 mg of calcium. RepCal for comparison would deliver roughly ten times that amount of calcium or 45 mg of calcium in the same amount if used to supplement

But you correct the one figure from 45mg to 150mg( and we wonder why new people get so confused)

Actually, I think it is in error. If the same .15g pinch were repcal, it would be 150mg of calcium not the 45mg she mentioned. Her other calculation seems fine to me.

SO, let me see if I can get this math straight so we have it down pat for the future again.

You said in the past:
just make sure to dust your insects with a calcium supp. WITH d3
since insects are fed daily that would work out to approximately 150mg of calcium daily x 7 = 1050gm weekly. Even adults that are feed insects only every other day that would be 525mg

But now, not the above anymore, but using Dragon Dust and NO UVB source is:
The t-rex dusts are fomulated for daily use and should be used this way. If you do use it the this way, your dragons will get all the calcium they need.

So according to the above figures that you corrected:
Dragon Dust at 4.5mg daily x 7 = 31.5mg weekly

1050mg weekly to 31.5mg weekly seems like a dramatic drop to me, especilly when others are advised not to use UVB lights to benefits the dragons along with it. Where you using too much before? or not enough now? or does that not matter either?

Now, again I am not saying I agree with any of this or that the figures I think are correct, I am pointing out what your saying, agree with, now and have advised others, in the past.

Please correct me if I am wrong, or clarify your position now both past and present so there are no misunderstandings to me AND others on this forum before more possible damage is done, that can not be undone.
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www.reptilerooms.com

What I am starting to realize from this thread is that alot of assumptions are made by everyone, including myself. Let's try to address some...

"Since you can not remember the advice you gave, I am glad I saved it, you
said this is a new person:

"You can ditch the undertank heater. Just put a flat rock under the heat
lamp. No need for a UV bulb, just make sure to dust your insects with a
calcium supp. WITH d3. Mineral-I or rep-cal are both good supps.
good luck "

I still stand by this advice. My mistake with this advice is it's vagueness. The assumption I made is that the person would use the supps. according to suggested supplementing schedules that have been mentioned many time previously on the forum. I don't think it should have to be spelled out every time someone recommends a supplement. So what i would add to this post is instead of a uv bulb, you can use a regular flourescent bulb, either a tube or compact screw in type. Both of these kinds of bulbs can be purchased at home depot, walmart...etc. If you do not use a uvb bulb you need to be using a calcium supplement that contain vitamin d3 in it. If you don't know how much and how often to use, you can search the forum, buy the Bearded Dragon Manual, or ask here.

"I remember this well and I saved it at that time, because later in that thread,
you also said a year from now we will all be saying Bill was right."

Yeah, that would have been better left unsaid. I really don't care if people think I am right or wrong. What is important to me is to continue to post and offer advice with respect to what has worked for me. This lets people know that there are more than one way to reach the same goal.It's up to them to decide which advice they follow, or if they ask for more information.

"Now your saying in current post, this is not your current advice, you
changed several months ago, but forgot to mention that when you started
telling others to use Dragon Dust"

Why does it have to be one or the other? As I said above, a miner-all I or rep-cal prococal would be fine, it has been for years. Why would that change? I just use the t-rex dusts now, It's what I prefer and recommend. I never said the others wont work. I should have said in my posts not to use other supps.? Should I have assumed people wont read the t-rex bottles and see that it was designed for every feeding, and that it says it provides all the nutrients you reptile needs?

""NO UVB source is needed by bearded dragons and that using dragon
dust is all that is needed." I was not aware that the makers of this make
this claim and that WILL be checked out so others are not mislead and the
companies position is VERY clear for me and others."

Yes, that is correct. If you use the products daily on every food item as directed, you will not need any uvb producing bulbs. You can go ahead and ask t-rex if they would recommend this, but I think we both know what the answer will be.

Now, let's hit the whole mess with all the silly math. This is where your making assumptions.

First off, I would never recommend and never have using just a pinch of the t-rex veggie dusts. So that calculation mess did nothing but to farther confuse people. I suggested that I use about a table spoon to about 3 cups chopped greens. This is just about how much I use and find to to work fine. You can do the math on just how much calcium that is if you wish. If you do decide to wigh that amount and to the math, you will find that the total for the week will be more than the rep-cal number of 1050mg. What does all this mean? Who knows? It works for my animals. Keep in mind that's one tablespoon for 3 cups of chopped greens. Does every one of my dragons eat 3 cups of chopped greens every day?...No. My postion is this. There is a sizable margin of error when it comes to supplementing with calcium and d3. It is far easier to under do it than to over do it. By the same token, if you use a product like miner-all I or rep-cal W/d3, you should be following a supplementing schedule that has been recommeded here, or in a book(I prfer the BD manual by avs), or ask here for use. When a product (OTHER THAN the t-rex dusts) says to lightly dust the food items whether it is veggies or bugs,you should not be making them look like they have been thrown in a bag or flour. Hope this makes the big pcture clearer, if not ask for more clarification.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

Hello again,

I don't really have time to get involved in these "debates" but I need to make a clarification about the amount of calcium in the dusts. We are getting ready to put up our new website and I am finishing about ten pages of info on the diets that goes into detail on the formulation process. I will make a post when it is finished so you can all check it out.

First off.

100% Calcium Carbonate "most calcium supplements" is not 100% calcium at all.
100% calcium contains about 34% calcium depending on the source.

The ICB contains an average of 13% calcium, so it only has 2.5 times less calcium than "Miner-All" for example (or any pure calcium carbonate supplement)

So if you were dusting your crickets with pure calcium carbonate each 2.5 times you fed, then you would equal using the ICB every time you feed. It is that simple, and thats how much calcium is needed to balance the amount of phosphorous in a cricket and give a total calcium intake of around 1.5-2.0% of the total food intake. (the amount desired) I will post more details as soon as my article is done.

Great post Allen thanks for Sharing. Another Key thing to not about your post is that on average most people that swear by RepCal calcium with D3 or MinerAl I use the supplement twice a week. Not everyday, everyday is highly discouraged in all cases except possibly in rapid growing young dragons or sick dragons, is the consensus. Therefor by dusting with TRex daily you actually are providing a little more calcium to your dragons. Say your dragon gets X units of calcium from repcal, you give repcal twice a week so total calcium intake for the week is 2*X units. Now move onto TRex super foods, on a given day you dust the food your dragon gets X/2.5 units per feeding. But you give TRex daily so over a one week period your dragon will get 2.8*X units of calcium.

Thanks Grimdog,

one other important factor... it depends how many days a week you feed. With the 2x per week method, two people could be doing this and giving totally different amounts of calcium to their herps. if one person feeds daily and one every other day....... your calcium intake as related to food intake is completely different.
Thats why I designed the ICB to be used everytime... what ever your feeding routine is won't make a difference. The intake is directly related to each item they eat, and this is what is important. I hope this makes sense.We want our minerals and vitamins to balance with the food intake at each feeding, not as an average over a week.

later, Allen

Thanks for making that more clear Allen. I was aware of that fact about calcium carbonate, just didn't enter my mind in this tread...my bad.Sorry about that.

>>Hello again,
>>
>>I don't really have time to get involved in these "debates" but I need to make a clarification about the amount of calcium in the dusts. We are getting ready to put up our new website and I am finishing about ten pages of info on the diets that goes into detail on the formulation process. I will make a post when it is finished so you can all check it out.
>>
>>First off.
>>
>>100% Calcium Carbonate "most calcium supplements" is not 100% calcium at all.
>>100% calcium contains about 34% calcium depending on the source.
>>
>>The ICB contains an average of 13% calcium, so it only has 2.5 times less calcium than "Miner-All" for example (or any pure calcium carbonate supplement)
>>
>>So if you were dusting your crickets with pure calcium carbonate each 2.5 times you fed, then you would equal using the ICB every time you feed. It is that simple, and thats how much calcium is needed to balance the amount of phosphorous in a cricket and give a total calcium intake of around 1.5-2.0% of the total food intake. (the amount desired) I will post more details as soon as my article is done.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

important to many users on here, they were asked in the lower thread and also again in this one, but since there are SO many here, maybe you missed them.

I appreciate your willingness to address some of the question about this product and since you are the one tha develeoped it tested it, you would have the best information available and it would not be a guessing game from others.

We have emailed T-Rex but get no response.

At least three of the people experiencing problems with their dragons are also using and have always used calcium with D3 as they were advised the amount of Ca in dragon dust was like 10 times less than other leading products used in the past, that seems to have worked well. I am VERY glad to see your comments and warning on that and that could account for the problems they are experiencing!

This information alone is helping many others. Maybe that should be added to the label to avoid a potential problem since it is stated to use daily?

These are the questions asked previously.

Would the use of this make a difference if the animals had higher UVB source (sunlight or MV) and greens rich in ca: ph already, opposed to ones that get no UVB but just supplements to add the D3 they can not synthesiz on their own? OR one's fed a poorer diet of low ca: ph foods

Do you recommend as state by another that bearded dragons will not need a UVB source with this supplemented used daily?

Also, and sorry for all the question, but I think it is important, if a commercial food like pellets that already states it has all the nutritional needs for an beared dragon including calcium with D3 is fed regularly, should this product be used with it?

Lastly, thank you for the information about phytase, we could not find what the process made and its effects on food, but it brings up another question. So many "advisors" have stated to use supplements that are phosphorus free on bearded dragons. One of the leading brands used on DB of Calcium with D3 is also phosphoprus free and promotes that fact, are you saying this is not correct for reptiles and they need more... not less?

Many of us look forward to answers that we can not find solidly stated on the distributor site or lack of reponses from the distributor.

NOTE to other users: I appreciate others willingness to guess these answers trying to help, but it really would be better if the maker and testor of this product addessed these questions.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Here is an of forum answer to a similar question about D-3. As for pelleted diets, Bill was correct in that they are just a food and could be topped with superfood VMF or VGF as if it were on greens. The ICB however is only for dusting crickets.

here is the message:

Question :I keep my dragons outdoors during the spring/summer warm months. Would you recommend using the t-rex supplements, or not, because of the added D3 (that they naturally produce being exposed to natural sunlight)

No problem using the foods outdoors.... That's how we use most of it at the ranch.

What happens is...

A dragon has a certain requirement for D-3 that it needs to fulfill from somewhere... in nature it comes from mother Sun. In captivity, it comes from supplements and or uv lights.

The dragon will absorb only what it needs from UV sources to fulfill its requirements.
With supplements, the dragon can not control how much dietary D-3 it absorbs.. It absorbs what it eats.
So if you give it too much, it can overdose.

If you don't give it enough, then it will try to absorb the remaining requirement from UV sources.
A dragon with no UV, is stuck with what you feed it. If it is the right amount, then all is good! The problem is that this is not an easy thing to provide accurately.

Back to Outside.

Think of the amount of available D-3 in a Dragon as a jar for example. if you fill the jar half way with dietary d-3 the dragon will try to fill the rest of the jar with d-3 it makes from UV.. if it is available, then the jar will be filled up.. not over filled.

If you give too much dietary D-3 you will over fill the jar.

If you give no D-3 the dragon will try and fill the jar with UV supplied D-3.... no problem with enough UV, but don't give them enough and they can't fill the jar.

So as long as we are not overfilling the jar, the dragon will top off the jar with synthesized D-3 that it makes on an as needed basis.

If we gave them exactly what they needed in dietary form, then they just wouldn't synthesize any from the sun.

I hope this makes sense.

I think from all of my trial and error, that we are very close on the levels in the Superfoods when used as directed, as many dragons have ben successfully raised on them with no UV at all. But UV is great insurance, and creates the best of both worlds.

The important thing is to not overdose the dietary D-3 because the dragons can't control the absorbtion which could lead to toxicity.

In a perfect world we would give them their exact requirements with dietary supplementation. But this is impossible to do because even the demands can vary based on the animals condition (ie growing, ovulating ect)

"exact" is another thing we don't really know... it seems to be more of a range, and that we can do a pretty good job of staying within the range with our Superfood protocols. Dragons have been raised and bred on the Superfoods with no UV at all. That doesn't mean that adding UV is not a better way to do it.... It is. Especially for those that aren't as regimented about feeding and supplementation as others. Relying on dietary D-3 as a sole source is possible, but is also a gamble, especially when it us not combined with the correct amount of calcium, phosphorous, and other key elements. Using just a calcium/D-3 supplement is like trying to build a puzzle without having more than a few pieces. What I have tried to do with the superfoods is provide as many pieces as possible... not that anyone can provide them all compared to a varied diet and natural sunlight. I do think that at least I have enough pieces so that you can get close enough to at least see what the finished puzzle looks like. Until someone wants to spend millions of dollars on research, we can't get any closer.

If you understood my example above, you will understand that using D-3 outdoors is not a problem as long as you don't over supply it.

Much of what I have said is only my opinion from trial and error observations and literature research. It is by no means the only opinion on the subject and others may argue it.

Allen

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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

It certainly has clarified the points of UVB and supplements, how they work, which you feel is more beneficial and safer. Many animals will benefits from your comments here. Hopefully, it will put to rest some advice (debates) that has been given to new people starting out with their first dragons.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Thanks Allen,
Like I mentioned to you before, I have been raising and breeding my dragons using just the superfoods and no uvb. It's good to see you post that guys have done the same there with success. Previous to the Superfoods, I was doing the same with rep-cal and miner-all I without problems, but atleast with the Superfoods the guesswork is gone and the nutrients are fine tuned to this sort of husbandry.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

That cleared up a lot of confusion I was having. I've been using the dust, rep cal pellets, and UVB (my dragons don't have much access to real sunlight, unfortunately). I was starting to worry if I was over doing it, but I feel much better now. Thank you!
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1.0.1 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

This was posted below, and on here, but was deleted here so I want to make sure others see what the maker states about the use of this product

Allen Repashy said:
Another thing I got out of reading some posts on here is that some people are using the Dragon Dust and are continuing to use additional calcium and vitamin supplements. I highly discourage this. The Dusts have everything necessary, and any additional outside supplementation could overdose a dragon just as any case of over supplementation could.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I feed a diet of assorted greens (a 5 quart container loosely filled with greens and a tablespon of Dragon Dust),topped with rep cal pellets. I feed crix, worms or roaches every other day (usually dusted with Dragon dust). I also use the vit-all to gut load my crix occationally. Some of my animals get sunlight, others reptisun 5 bulbs and some just the supliments in the food.

Am I overdoing it?
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Here's an old link from the Rhacodactylus forum about this subject.

http://forum.kingsnake.com/rhac/messages/4416.html

>>I feed a diet of assorted greens (a 5 quart container loosely filled with greens and a tablespon of Dragon Dust),topped with rep cal pellets. I feed crix, worms or roaches every other day (usually dusted with Dragon dust). I also use the vit-all to gut load my crix occationally. Some of my animals get sunlight, others reptisun 5 bulbs and some just the supliments in the food.
>>
>>Am I overdoing it?
>>-----
>>Bennett
>>
>>
>>
>>www.beardiedragon.com
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

Thanks for finding that old post Bill.

One thing to add on the gutloading thing that many overlook.

The ILF gutload that I developed has three main applications. The first and most obvious is for pre_loading insects before they are fed. The previous link covers this topic pretty well.
The second use is primarily for larger breeders who feed mealworms, but will work for anything that eats mealworms, and frankly, I don't know why more people don't do it. (The top three leopard gecko breeders (by quantity) in the world are all using the ILF in this way for their colonies.)
Using an 8 ounce deli container with about a quarter inch of ILF in the bottom, and keeping it with a bunch of mealworms at all times. The mealworms eat the ILF, and stay dusted in it at the same time. No other supplementation is necessary.
The third and most important use if the ILF (or any gutload for that matter) is the least practiced, and one of the most important.
Picture this:
You toss in a dozen and a half crickets in your Dragon cage... he snags about ten of them right off the bat, and the rest of them dissappear under cage furniture or are just not eaten because the Dragon has had his fill.
What happens to these Crickets? In about two hours they are going to be hungry and looking for something to eat.... what do they find to eat in most cages? Lizard Feces!..... and thats what they usually eat Eating feces does many things. It decreases the nutritional value of the cricket for one. More importantly, it creates an intermediate host situation for many parasites that might be present in the feces. Many parasites require an intermediate host such as an insect to even have the opportunity to re infect an animal and complete another life cycle.
Lizard takes crap.... cricket eats crap.... lizard gets more parasites....
So keeping a high quality gutload in your terrarium will give insects something to eat other than feces..... and they will ALWAYS make that choice... reducing chances of parasite transmission and at the same time keeping the insect at max nutritional value for the time your dragon finally finds him and picks him off....

I have been spending way to much time on here.... I hope you have got some useful information from my posts. I will use some of this info in the writings I am doing for our new website, and I really need to get back to it....

Seeya, Allen Repashy

I've switch my Leopard gecko colony over to the ILF feeding method ever since you suggested it. It beats Vionate by a mile.

>>Thanks for finding that old post Bill.
>>
>>One thing to add on the gutloading thing that many overlook.
>>
>>The ILF gutload that I developed has three main applications. The first and most obvious is for pre_loading insects before they are fed. The previous link covers this topic pretty well.
>>The second use is primarily for larger breeders who feed mealworms, but will work for anything that eats mealworms, and frankly, I don't know why more people don't do it. (The top three leopard gecko breeders (by quantity) in the world are all using the ILF in this way for their colonies.)
>>Using an 8 ounce deli container with about a quarter inch of ILF in the bottom, and keeping it with a bunch of mealworms at all times. The mealworms eat the ILF, and stay dusted in it at the same time. No other supplementation is necessary.
>>The third and most important use if the ILF (or any gutload for that matter) is the least practiced, and one of the most important.
>>Picture this:
>>You toss in a dozen and a half crickets in your Dragon cage... he snags about ten of them right off the bat, and the rest of them dissappear under cage furniture or are just not eaten because the Dragon has had his fill.
>>What happens to these Crickets? In about two hours they are going to be hungry and looking for something to eat.... what do they find to eat in most cages? Lizard Feces!..... and thats what they usually eat Eating feces does many things. It decreases the nutritional value of the cricket for one. More importantly, it creates an intermediate host situation for many parasites that might be present in the feces. Many parasites require an intermediate host such as an insect to even have the opportunity to re infect an animal and complete another life cycle.
>>Lizard takes crap.... cricket eats crap.... lizard gets more parasites....
>>So keeping a high quality gutload in your terrarium will give insects something to eat other than feces..... and they will ALWAYS make that choice... reducing chances of parasite transmission and at the same time keeping the insect at max nutritional value for the time your dragon finally finds him and picks him off....
>>
>>I have been spending way to much time on here.... I hope you have got some useful information from my posts. I will use some of this info in the writings I am doing for our new website, and I really need to get back to it....
>>
>>Seeya, Allen Repashy
-----
Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung