Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a post to provide information to a few individuals who apparently do not have knowledge of the accomplishments of many "care-takers" across the US involved in CAPTIVE BREEDING programs specializing in genetic mutations. I have been involved in the captive breeding of snakes (w/ a specific interest in mutations) for the past ten years. I acquired an unproven WC Axanthic Ball Python in '94 before the explosion of interest in Ball Python mutations. I knew of the discovered interest and popularity of the first Albino Ball Pythons that were becoming available at that time and realized the importance of a "second half" of the equation which would be considered the next step. As in any business venture, it is essential to try to stay one step ahead of everyone else. I never imagined Ball Pythons would take off like they did. As a matter of fact, I feel they took off too fast for me to keep up armed with only a modest income. Dbl. Homozygous mutations were fetching a standard rate of 40 - 50K/ea. in no time. At least one of the mutations can fetch prices of over 200K/ea. With that being taken into consideration, I really started to take a strong interest in the Venomous mutations which were considerably less money and more interesting captives. I also feel that this is a market that has a lot of potential. Having been a regular at a few of the HOT shows, I am well aware of the fact that the main percentage of Venomous keepers will purchase a WC snake over a C.b.b. snake to save a few bucks. I believe that this is the main reason there aren't very many successful HOT breeding programs out there. It has come a long way since I started but the industry is always changing. The breeding programs involving the Albino Eastern Diamondbacks is indicative of that fact. Just this past year, G. Hubbard obtained a male Axanthic EDB to breed into his Albinos. I also obtained a WC Axanthic Monocled Cobra in the same year. The comparison of a wild-type Monocled & EDB shows the animals are basically made up of the same colouration - blacks, browns, & yellows. The comparison of the specimens believed to be Axanthics (as they are both unproven) reveal the same visual characteristics. I have worked w/ many Axanthic/Anerythristic animals as it is my favorite mutation. I proved out my own strain of Axanthic Ball Pythons in '97 & successfully produced the first SNOWBALL Python in '01 from Dbl. Hets. I produced in '98. R. Davis & T. Barker have also produced SNOWBALLS from Dbl. Hets. I produced. I have also worked with (& produced) Anery. Common Boas, Honduran Milksnakes, & Ghost (Anery. & Hypo) Hondurans. I have been working on a photo book of mutations which has taken me from Texas to New York, photographing some of the biggest & best reptile collections in the US. I have seen many different Axanthic/Anerythristic specimens of Trans-Pecos Ratsnakes, Cornsnakes, different species/sub-species of Milksnakes, Sand Boas, Rainbow Boas, True Red-tail Boas, WDBs, EDBs, Copperheads, and now the Monocled Cobra. Because some these lineages have not been proven out doesn't make them any less than what they are. The possibility of these being a "result of incubation temperature fluctuations" is ludicrous. Anyone with the slightest understanding of genetics knows a mutation can NOT be created by temperature fluctuations. Oreganus, if you actually had specimens that resembled an Axanthic, it is a shame you were unable to establish the bloodline. I would have gladly paid you 5K for a WC animal & more for a C.b.b. specimen. Think of all the Albinos out there - waiting for the necessary counter-part!! Sure, any live animal purchase is a gamble but there will only be a few animals available from this bloodline & if there is no one out there willing to take a chance at producing the first SNOW

Cobra, I will gladly keep all the offspring & do it myself. I personally like a challenge. I have only offered the offspring as a product of a WC Axanthic bred to Albino. In no way have I misrepresented these animals. It is up to someone's understanding of the project if they choose to invest in it or not and I don't appreciate your public criticism of anyone who would. Who has ever heard of a reverse Piebald mutation anyways? You guys are funny. Try doing something productive instead of criticizing others. What is your real name & what contributions have you made to the hobby? Feel free to provide proof (pix) to back up what you’re saying – I’d love to see pix of your Axanthic Cobra. Thanx to Greg for the permission to use his photo – can’t wait till you have Dbl. Hets. available – even if they are “unproven”.

I enjoyed the pictures, especially the cobras. Thanks for posting them.

>Who has ever heard of a reverse Piebald mutation anyways? You guys are funny.

Hmm, since it's the only one I've ever seen, I can call it what I want I suppose. It's like a "paradox normal." Would that be a better descriptive term for you? It's basically just an odd black abberancy that wraps around the animal's entire body and shouldn't be there. Most likely it is the result of temperature fluctuations in incubation, which has been known to cause mishaps in the formation of the baby, be in physical deformities or coloration abberancies. I never said your snakes absolutely were not double het for snow, I simply said I wouldn't pay that much for a completely unproven trait. By the way, if the yellow pigment is present, that wouldn't be axanthic. Maybe you messed up with you typed that in the post, but A-xanthic describes the lack of yellow pigment, whereas the opposite, xanthic, would describe an over abundance of yellow coloration. And as far as what are my contributions to the hobby? Currently they are mainly to breed seldomly bred specimens in order to try and cut down on the importation of these animals (Dispholidus and Oxyuranus). To be honest, I truly hope this project works out and snow monocleds are produced. I would personally love to see them become available in the trade.
-Chance (my real name, and my real website is below)
River Valley Snakes

I knew your real name and have checked into your projects via your website. I wish you the best of luck w/ the Taipans - it is nice to hear of a HOT keeper aware of the impact of the constant collection of animals from the wild! My rant was aimed more at Oreganus than you. I have actually seen quite a few animals (Ball Pythons esp.) people have termed "Reverse Piebalds". None of the aberrancies with these particular characteristics have ever been worked out to be genetic though. Doesn't mean yours won't - just saying there is no precedence for that type of visual defect. If you would post pix, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one interested in seeing what it looks like. If someone offers you 10K for it, you would turn it down huh? My point was that there are many Axanthic/Anerythristic proven lineages in a number of different species/sub-species of Snakes in particular. Axanthism is defined in a generalized & over-simplified way as lacking yellow. This is a very generic definition. If you view the pic. of the Snowball (which is an Axanthic & an Albino in the same snake), you will see that there is underlying layer of yellow pigment which is believed to be masked by another layer of colour in an animal just homozygous for Axanthic. Same rule applies to the Snow Honduran Milksnakes. Where normal Hondurans have red bands then yellow bands surrounded by black bands, the Anerythristic (or Axanthic) mutation is a pinkish lavendar banded snake with white bands surrounded by black bands. The Snow Hondurans (which is an Anerythristic & Albino in ther same specimen) still has very faint red & yellow bands. So the terms Axanthic or Anerythristic should mean the animals lack most of the yellow (or yellow & red in regards to the Anerythristic) BUT NOT ALL of it. One should realize that these terms & definitions are made up by us from our interpretation of what we see - which is probably why you never see a species have an Axanthic mutation AND an Anerythristic mutation. It is usually perceived as one or the other while they both are prob. the same thing. Through the generic defintions (Axanthic = lacking yellow & Anerythristic = lacking red& yellow), it should definately be a possibility but it never happens. A dermatologist (which I am not) could give a more scientific explanation. I am offering my defintion through my experience only. Another example would be the Snow (or Anery.) Corns - they all still have yellow - esp. in the throat region.
P.S. My prices reflect supply & demand. I will prob. only have 3 - 5 animals available. It is not my point to sell them as fast as I can or have them available to everyone. While I appreciate your sentiments, I did not think that a public forum was the place to voice your thoughts since there was not a question in the way of "Chance, would you pay 3K for a Dbl. Het. Snow Cobra" - proven or not. I personally don't care if no one is willing to pay the price for the animals. I don't mind keeping them. Since they are mine, that is the value I place on them. No one else can determine that, only the person who owns them. If I had C.b.b. Taipans available for $40, would that mean yours would be worth only $40? NO. That means I would have more people wanting to buy them than I had actual snakes.