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Hot female leopard gecko question for KelliH or GoldenGateGeckos

beakgeek Mar 23, 2004 06:08 PM

I have a clutch of eggs that have been incubated at 80 degrees for 20 days. I moved them to a new incubator to incubate them at 89 degrees to get more vibrant colors and so they will hatch quicker. My question is will this cause the females to be aggressive(hot) or is that dependant on the temperatures during the first 20 days; the period that determines the sex of the babies.

Thanks in advance!

Terry
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Terry Brashear
1.0.0 High Yellow
0.1.0 Lavender
0.1.0 Hypo Carrot-tail
2 eggs incubating
http://www.naturepixels.com/gecko

Replies (12)

ByRandom Mar 23, 2004 06:11 PM

The "Tremper Method" has been proven (not by me, but what I've read of other's experiences) to lower the hatching rate of the eggs, as many of the ones that don't hatch die within the egg. It is my opinion that you should incubate them at 80-83 for the duration of the incubating period. What is a few weeks more, whenever the life of the embryo is at risk?

If you want more vibrant animals, look into purchasing these animals (as they will be more expensive) but they would throw you killer offspring. In my opinion this "Method" is worthless, although, like I've said, this is my OPINION.
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Modern Geckos
Josh Ellis
My Email
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beakgeek Mar 23, 2004 07:07 PM

Thanks Josh. I did not realize that 88 degrees would kill the embryo. I moved the clutch of eggs back to the cooler incubator.

Thanks again.

Terry
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Terry Brashear
1.0.0 High Yellow
0.1.0 Lavender
0.1.0 Hypo Carrot-tail
6 eggs incubating
http://www.naturepixels.com/gecko

CoolGecko Mar 23, 2004 07:34 PM

it is ok. It won't kill but Tremper Method casues more deformites than any methods and lower hatch rate for females and male to hatch becasue at most of it is vitam A casuing the deforemites. A lot of breeder hate this method.
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Preston Berry
www.freewebs.com/coolgeckoUnder Construction
restonberry@austin.rr.com" target="_blank">Prestonberry@austin.rr.com

Fritz Mar 23, 2004 08:47 PM

I believe that some of the problems of switching temperatures comes from making the change suddenly rather than over a period of a few days or a week.

I think that bumping the temp quickly might shock the developing egg and cause problems. I haven't done any research or anything to prove/disprove this, but it makes sense rattling around in my head
If you're set on raising temps, try doing it maybe 1 degree a day or something more gentle for the eggs.

my $0.02
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The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

CoolGecko Mar 23, 2004 09:10 PM

Yep I agreed with you! I heard Ron bury them 100% might casue it temp to increase slower than half buried?
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Preston Berry
www.freewebs.com/coolgeckoUnder Construction
restonberry@austin.rr.com" target="_blank">Prestonberry@austin.rr.com

Fritz Mar 24, 2004 04:58 AM

moist vermiculite or perlite would definately heat up slower than air.
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The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

GoldenGateGeckos Mar 24, 2004 11:41 AM

Consider this. What temperature is the laying medium in the nest box when the eggs are laid? What temperature is the vermiculite in the deli cups when you put the eggs in? Most likely the temperature of the laying box medium is around 80 degrees. Then you put the eggs in a deli cup with moist vermiculite that is most likely room temperature... below 80 degrees. Then, the deli cup with the eggs goes into an 88-90 degree incubator. That could be a rise of as much as 15 degrees in a very short time.

On the other hand, when the eggs have been at a constant 82 degrees for 3 weeks and the embryo already is forming, would a sudden 6-8 degree change put it into shock? I think it would be a very interesting experiment if someone used a probe or an inferometer to determine the rate (time vs. temp.) in which the temperature of the egg goes from 80 to 90 degrees when put directly from one incubator into another.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Fritz Mar 24, 2004 08:06 PM

well I try to keep the nest box around 82. its a bit trickier since its not enclosed in an insulated box like the incubator...
but the eggs are only out of that long enough for me to put them in the incubator. I keep the egg containers in the incubator and have it running good within a week of mating.
I'm paranoid
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The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

CoolGecko Mar 23, 2004 06:17 PM

I can answer that qestion. I did not seen them as hot female and I know Ron Tremper use the method but I seen clam leos females. I bought some from them. There is really no such as hot females I has some and they breeds well but takes longer to reach sex maturity. I used this method last year I seen worst hatch rates than any few years I been breeding them. It just took 2 week to lock sex but some turns out males.
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Preston Berry
www.freewebs.com/coolgeckoUnder Construction
restonberry@austin.rr.com" target="_blank">Prestonberry@austin.rr.com

GoldenGateGeckos Mar 23, 2004 11:24 PM

First of all, the "Tremper" method was not developed by RT at all. Drs. Brian Viets, WHN Gutzke, and David Crews started seeing a difference in color and patterning about 20 years ago when they were doing studies on the effect of temperature vs. gender. Many new studies have been conducted since then, and I really don't think there is a real solid formula that will answer the questions about "hot" females and the amount of melanin production in regard to incubation temperatures.

Studies have suggested that females incubated at lower temperatures will reach sexual maturity earlier than those incubated at higher temps. Some have also shown a correlation with the actual fertility rates being lower in these "hot" females, too. But, basically it doesn't really matter when these females become sexually mature and start producing viable eggs if you wait until ANY female is 2 years old and of good breeding weight before you allow them to begin laying eggs!

Now, in regard to the temperature increase when you go from 80-82 degrees incubation directly in to a 88-90 degree environment, that is and will most likely remain a subject of debate for quite some time. In theory, naturally fluctuating temperatures could easily oscillate between 6-8 degrees, but it would occur more gradually. I incubate my females at 80-82 degrees (pretty low!) and my males at 88-90 degrees (pretty high!), and actually have a very low egg mortalilty rate. I know some have had a lot of problems incubating at that high a temperature, but fortunately I have not.

I tested the "Tremper" method last year on a couple of clutches of albinos, and the results were fairly conclusive in regard to the coloration of the offspring, that there may be a real correlation in the levels of tyronaise (or yellow coloring) dependent on incubation temperatures. But, if that was the case in every instance, then ALL males would be brighter in color with less dark pigmentation than females simply because they are incubated at higher temperatures, and that simply is not the case!

Here are some pics of the albino offspring (same parents) that were incubated using the so-called "Tremper" method:


This male was incubated @ 90° for 38 days.


This female was incubated @ 80° for 21 days then 90° for 27 days.


This is the clutchmate to the female above, and she was incubated @ 80° for 57 days.
(*note: some breeders are calling these "chocolate" albinos in order to sell them as a new morph, but in reality they are just dark, brown albinos... formerly an undesireable trait.)

So, we may have to wait awhile to get the real scoop on color vs. temperature, but we do know how it affects gender!

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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

DanTheFireman Mar 25, 2004 07:12 AM

Tremper sez to do as you did with the middle female to keep them light but she is darker than the male-interesting. I just do Rainwaters which "they" say are supposedly t-neg. My brightest ones so far this season are two girls @ 82 degrees.

GoldenGateGeckos Mar 25, 2004 03:33 PM

The general concensus is that ALL albino Leopard Geckos are T-!!! Go figure... lol!
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

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