Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey come on stevos the man...hes got a passion for these animals...he cant act the passion he feels..steve is great.ok we can all be an ass sometimes just we dont have cameras on us.im betting 99% of crocodilian keepers at some point in there lives have held there crocs for no reason other than to show off..especially at the beginning..im even betting the 3 or 4 people on this forum(who think only they have the right to own crocs)have held or let someone hold there crocs in an unsafe enviroment.they constantly degrade ,critic, and in general make people feel guilty and bad about every little error theyve made.but im sure in the beggining they have made these mistakes,we cant all be experts immediatly,but we DO HAVE THER RIGHT to keep these animals if we have the proper paperwork..as for jeff corwin,he aint got anywhere near the passion of steve..steve had no choice he just followed i his fathers footsteps like many of us do..corwin is brutall sometimes and you can see hes doing it for money fame etc.they way he grabs some spescies of animal makes me feel like grabbing him by the neck.the only reason hes on tv is because hes american and usaully usa relates more to there own kind rather than a foreigner.just like us brits do..dunno if you guys get the program killer instinct but rob brengl is another who sits on the crocs backs etc..atleast steve only ropes crocs when being moved ,transported or need vets attention..he also does so much works for animals with no pay..i never see him being aggressive like corwin...anyway ill get off my soap box now...as for the 3 or 4 people on here who are so called experts please be gentler with your critisms some people get very hurt when you tell them all bad and no good..if these people were bad and didnt care about there animals they wouldnt be posting probs and questions..they would just leave there animals to die etc..please think about this when giving advice as i know i a person on here who was on tears after a certain person answered there question..he felt like he had made his animal ill etc...maybe you should look at the way cdieter answer people..im sure he feels like calling us begginers everything under the sun..but he doesnt he tells us where were going wrong followed by some possitive thoughts..

I am one who is on the other side and has neither time, nor respect for Mr. Irwin, or his inflated ego. I don't think his methods are respectful of the animals nor particularly educational. In fact, I think his methods are disrespectful and serve to bolster negative public opinion - particularly among people who actually share habitat with the animals that Irwin so heroically shows off with. Unfortunately, I also understand why some segments of the public are enamored with him as he is a charismatic and exciting personality - he is very good at what he does, whether you agree with him or not.

Sadly, I think if one really objectively views his program, it becomes evident that the show is really all about Steve, not the animals.

I have nothing against yours nor anyones right to an opinion about Steve Irwin, but be aware that not everyone agrees with what *appears* to be the common opinion here.

yes we do all have opinions...but then we are not all as informed about these reptiles like yourself..my kids love steve irwin,yet they have respect for animals,and i know where you coming from.but people want to see crocs in wild getting manhandled and if someones gonna do it i think steve is the man,would you rather someone with no knowledge did these programs???but as you said we all have opinions and thats wat this forum is for..im not going to get into it big time with you as you undoubtedly know far more than me,and im sure you know what affect this has on these animals far more than i ever will in two lifetimes.im just annoyed about everybody running him down..if you dont like it dont watch..

If we put crocodilians aside, I have almost zero knowledge of a western taipan, and I don't feel very educated about them while watching Irwin dancing around while holding one by the tail. What is that teaching anyone? The animal looks aggressive with all the strikes and near misses but in actuality, as far as the snake is concerned, it's fighting for it's life. Pure sensationalism! What's worse, his antics and carelessness have gotten people he works with hurt - of course you never hear about that.

Someone else mentioned the "chance" encounters on Wild Kingdom and other shows of that ilk. Don't kid yourself, Irwin just doesn't put a film crew on the clock and walk around hoping to find something. It's all a setup.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being critical of your opinion, just trying to present another side. Of course my opinions could be a result of the fact that I'm green with envy and insanely jealous of everything he does and all that he stands for LOL!

To change the subject, good luck with your caiman.

Bill

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I've got to weigh in here, too, since the producers who filmed our Nat Geo croc show also filmed Irwin, so I got to hear about him a lot. Plus, Irwin and crew wanted to come film our anaconda research, but ONLY if we'd let him, and only him, catch - or "wrassle" anacondas, and to boot they weren't going to pay us a dime, even though we were living in the states at the time, and would have had to travel and stay in Venezuela.

Irwin may be good for kids in general, but as someone who has handled wild crocs, I can't stand how he demonstrates how to catch them - INCORRECTLY - all the time. Who catches a croc with a loop around the lower jaw only, except to let the croc be more "scary" and toothy looking to the camera / audience? It's not good for the croc's teeth, nor the handlers, and plus others (including that croc guy with Nat Geo, forgot his name) are starting to mimic his lousy handling style.

Maybe worst is how he handles snakes - ask anyone who has worked with him in Australia, they will tell you he puts the venomous snakes in the freezer before handling them, so that they aren't so feisty. You wouldn't do that to a tiger, or a hyper dog, so why is it ok to do it with a snake? Steve isn't the worst out there - like some, such as Nigel Marvin, I worked with him, don't even get me started - but Irwin doesn't set a good example to other filmakers, and as a biologist I find his methods very careless - and HIS safety isn't my first concern. I just hope the message he sends to kids is to appreciate nature, instead of exploiting them for personal gain.

Renee

"I just hope the message he sends to kids is to appreciate nature, instead of exploiting them for personal gain."

Verry well said -

Raven -

thanks bill..i had box etc sorted out it was just the time scale i was struggling on...im off to get him now so wish me luck...as for steve lets face it anyone who believes he just stumles acrross a veomous species in middle of the road is even dafter than he is...nigel marvin is a complete ass..my mate had a bit of dealings with him and hes a right pain...plus if he mentions hes from england or that the english do things diffrent one more time im gonna put something thru my tv...lol..you sorta made my point without you actually realising it...steve is the best of a bad bunch...unfortunatly we dont live in a perfect world where these reptiles etc get to live without being harrased..if we did none of us would be on this forum keep in mind...anyway as far as im concerened im drawing a line under this subject,or we will end up talking about tv shows instead or crocodilian..lol

I don't know if you caught my post below, but I am very supportive of what Irwin does and has done to date. I may find him a little obnoxious, but that is just a personality issue not a reflection of what I feel about his work.

I have watched many of his shows and I absolutely value the way that Irwin makes a point to cover all the facts about each animal and sheds light on many issues, not just their impact on society.

Many people may be envious of Irwin's fame, fortune and success and thus may criticize what he does. I am not one of those. His success does not reflect my own failure, but instead reflects successes I may strive for in the future. So I am not jealous of him, I admire what he does and all that he accomplishes in so many areas.

My hat is off to him and I hope he is around for decades to come.

>>hey come on stevos the man...hes got a passion for these animals...he cant act the passion he feels..steve is great.ok we can all be an ass sometimes just we dont have cameras on us.im betting 99% of crocodilian keepers at some point in there lives have held there crocs for no reason other than to show off..especially at the beginning..im even betting the 3 or 4 people on this forum(who think only they have the right to own crocs)have held or let someone hold there crocs in an unsafe enviroment.they constantly degrade ,critic, and in general make people feel guilty and bad about every little error theyve made.but im sure in the beggining they have made these mistakes,we cant all be experts immediatly,but we DO HAVE THER RIGHT to keep these animals if we have the proper paperwork..as for jeff corwin,he aint got anywhere near the passion of steve..steve had no choice he just followed i his fathers footsteps like many of us do..corwin is brutall sometimes and you can see hes doing it for money fame etc.they way he grabs some spescies of animal makes me feel like grabbing him by the neck.the only reason hes on tv is because hes american and usaully usa relates more to there own kind rather than a foreigner.just like us brits do..dunno if you guys get the program killer instinct but rob brengl is another who sits on the crocs backs etc..atleast steve only ropes crocs when being moved ,transported or need vets attention..he also does so much works for animals with no pay..i never see him being aggressive like corwin...anyway ill get off my soap box now...as for the 3 or 4 people on here who are so called experts please be gentler with your critisms some people get very hurt when you tell them all bad and no good..if these people were bad and didnt care about there animals they wouldnt be posting probs and questions..they would just leave there animals to die etc..please think about this when giving advice as i know i a person on here who was on tears after a certain person answered there question..he felt like he had made his animal ill etc...maybe you should look at the way cdieter answer people..im sure he feels like calling us begginers everything under the sun..but he doesnt he tells us where were going wrong followed by some possitive thoughts..
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

I usually am pretty neutral on Mr. Irwin. I like some of his shows, some I don't. I do find him increasingly difficult to watch from a personality standpoint and in truth most often when I watch his show it is to see his enclosure design.

I do like those capture/transport boxes he has used most recently.

As a nature lover i don't glean alot of good 'animal' information from the shows and do see them as pretty sensationalistic. But thats what puts fannies in the seats.

I don't begrudge him his success(why would you?) but don't get much other than entertainment from him either.

Like it or not,He is the front man for herpers and croc keepers in general. Whether that is good or bad is a matter of opinion.

CD

I absolutely agree with Bill Moss and it was also interesting to read Renees notice.
Steve Irwin is one of the biggest enemies of sustainable use in crocodilians. It was sustainable use,promoted by herpetologists
(AND crocodilian lovers)like Harry Messel and Grahame Webb, that brought especially australian crocs back to a great population size.
Steve Irwins shows are personality shows...well done, but nothing more.

Oddly enough Steve does'nt bother me. Brady Barr on the other hand has singlehandedly destroyed Nat.Geos. hard earned 80plus year reputation. As much as I admire Renee and appreciate her comments here and on the anaconda forum B Barr is embarrassing the co. she works for. If I here him say a 2000 lb Am. croc one more time I'll scream.
The other day he said an adult 200lb Komodo could eat 80% of its bodyweight in one feeding. That's a 160lbs!!!
Where does he get this stuff. Half the time he looks frightened the other half just incompetent.
I did however like the way he used a short piece of pvc to force feed a croc. Oh well blind pig...
Steves biggest problem. Apparently in Australia they don't know what gates are. Maybe he needs a TX boy to come over and build him some gates. Besides being more difficult lifting crocs over a fence they just look stupid when you could walk through a gate.
Top jaw rope seems to be an extremely effective capture technique to me with the natural tendency to roll.
And though in the past I've argued with Bill on the use of catch poles they are notorious teeth breakers. Especially compared to a soft rope.
Jeff Corwin is an idiot and nobody can dis Nigel like Renee so I'll leave that to her. O'Shea seems to be okay.
Anyway, I'm jealous of all of them and I admit it.
D.C.

I just have to say that you shouldn't judge the way most people work with crocodilians by watching TV shows! We cringe when watching other people catch crocs (maybe they do the same watching us, I don't know) because they don't use what we consider safe techniques. The thing that gets me about most croc handling I've seen is the total lack of teamwork being displayed. No single person should catch a croc (unless it's a juvenile) and believe it's completely safe. Crocs are dangerous, and safety comes through proper teamwork. I've learned the hard way to choose team members you can trust, and we always teach others to do the same.

Adam

i wish i got as many responses from my questions..rather than a message about steve..i agrre with you..i wrote about steve before getting my caiman yesterday..i now know why you guys try and put people off owning caiman...mine is just over 3 1/2 ft and hes so so powerfull...ive seen you guys say this many times but now fully understand..i made long journey with my guy..so when i put him in enclosure he was fiesty but not too bad...boy what a diffrence today...im learning all the time..i put piping round my wires etc so he couldnt bite them...but i never secured them enough..nor did i secure the heavy rocks enough..i never thought he could move them..but he has..so unfortunatly i had to get in his pool today to fix this problem...boy he is so so strong..for his size...i came out and called 2 friends,,we then gently got him to other side they then stopped him approaching me with an old door in middle of tank..my heating is now very secure..as are his rocks etc...so yes i think maybe steve etc should use more men...if anyone reads this and is getting a caiman..be very very carefull..when you collect hium take him home..hes very calm etc..but once his temprature gets up hes 5 times as strong..i hope i learn from these mistakes quickly...as i dont fancy having to enter his pool very often.i would say a 3 1/2 ft caiman is too big for a begginer,i was struggling a little on my own.i could have just grabbed him but didnt want to stress him anymore..im just glad i have a little experience with large monitors and my friends caiman etc..ive seen friendly alligators when living in usa...but these caiman are nothing like alligators...they seem far more aggressive etc...i helped a friend move an alligator one time..no probs..caiman seems diffrent..maybe someone could verify this for me as i am no expert..i have owned one for only 2 days...although my friends have them...

Yes, alligators are *generally* not aggressive while caiman are *generally* aggressive. I stress "generally" because I have experienced a relatively high percentage of exceptions. I have kept docile spectacled caimans and I have had and still have aggressive alligators. or,.. actually I should word it as "highly defensive". While not outwardly "aggressive", they do not want to be touched and will bite if a human crosses the line that they draw "in the air". This invisible line/perimeter tends to be about 6 feet from their center if you are standing erect. A little less if you're stooped or crawling. When one crosses this line the overly defensive gators will always first warn with loud audible growls and hisses along with a physical flex or flinch of their bodies in a threatening/warning manner. They communicate well that they want to be left alone and will only actually bite if one continues to advance and perhaps touches them. In addition to the pysical bluff-threat they will often attempt to walk away while making a lot of loud noise, tail bent and poised, back inflated, etc.

Now all this really has to do with is that they just want to be left alone. But food will change all of that. These very same gators will forget all about this prefered isolation if you as the bringer of food produces food and the alligator is hungry. The same "unsociable" gators that want nothing to do with me will come and take food from my hand with relative gentle ease. They have been doing it this way for over 30 years and understand the situation perfectly. After the food is gone or their hunger is sated they return to their antisocial ways, though usually not as extreme. I don't take any of this personally and I understand and respect that they just prefer to be at a distance. They have been this way since they were babies and will be this way until the day they die. I gave up a long time ago on the notion that I could change them or somehow reach them via long periods of demonstrating an overly non-threatening presence. One thing about gators and their "personality" is that they remain very constant. A nice gator will tend to remain nice for life and an antisocial gator will tend to remain antisocial. and on both counts there is never a shortage of selfish self preservation.

A traumatic event can change a nice gator into a defensive gator, however, but this is usually not a permanent change and will usually reverse in less than a year or two at most.

The only instance I can think of where a gator will actually aggressively pursue a human to intentionally inflict harm is when a female is protecting her eggs or her young. Otherwise gators prefer to avoid contact.

>>i wish i got as many responses from my questions..rather than a message about steve..i agrre with you..i wrote about steve before getting my caiman yesterday..i now know why you guys try and put people off owning caiman...mine is just over 3 1/2 ft and hes so so powerfull...ive seen you guys say this many times but now fully understand..i made long journey with my guy..so when i put him in enclosure he was fiesty but not too bad...boy what a diffrence today...im learning all the time..i put piping round my wires etc so he couldnt bite them...but i never secured them enough..nor did i secure the heavy rocks enough..i never thought he could move them..but he has..so unfortunatly i had to get in his pool today to fix this problem...boy he is so so strong..for his size...i came out and called 2 friends,,we then gently got him to other side they then stopped him approaching me with an old door in middle of tank..my heating is now very secure..as are his rocks etc...so yes i think maybe steve etc should use more men...if anyone reads this and is getting a caiman..be very very carefull..when you collect hium take him home..hes very calm etc..but once his temprature gets up hes 5 times as strong..i hope i learn from these mistakes quickly...as i dont fancy having to enter his pool very often.i would say a 3 1/2 ft caiman is too big for a begginer,i was struggling a little on my own.i could have just grabbed him but didnt want to stress him anymore..im just glad i have a little experience with large monitors and my friends caiman etc..ive seen friendly alligators when living in usa...but these caiman are nothing like alligators...they seem far more aggressive etc...i helped a friend move an alligator one time..no probs..caiman seems diffrent..maybe someone could verify this for me as i am no expert..i have owned one for only 2 days...although my friends have them...
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.