Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've done searches, read everything and still can't figure out what we should do. I see drawbacks to cup feeding (i.e. not "hunting" for food and possible tongue damage), but I also wonder what you do about cricket's chewing on your cham while they sleep if you don't cup feed. Obviously there are pros and cons to each method, but I thought I'd ask what you all do.
Thanks!
Kristen

It is a huge debate and you will get lots of opinions. I choose to cup feed, but I use a variation on the classic deli cup. I put my insects in a larger plastic bin hung in the branches (but my cages are huge compared to most keepers') with gutload and let the cham climb down to the rim to select and shoot them at a distance. No lazy tongues that way. I just don't like the idea of loose crix eating feces, shed parasite larvae and other grunge from the cage bottom at night. I have seen a cham with crix-chewed tail, but know if you always have crix food in the cage they tend to eat that instead. Go to www.chameleonnews.com and look for the Tips articles. Bill Strand has an excellent way to feed crix that are almost free ranging.

I realy like your idea to put cricket food in the cages its so simple but I never would have come up with it in a million years. I usualy like to let the crickets go because my cham seems to like the hunt,and then I just pull the uneaten ones when there are some out before the lights turn off but keeping cricket food in the cage might just eliminate that. Thanks for the idea I'm going to test it today and see where the crickets wind up.

The big problem I have with loose crix is that they are nocturnal and tend to hide during the day when the cham would hunt them. Unless the cham is lucky and shoots a newly released cricket immediately they don't tend to find them. The loose feeders I use are things like houseflies that are active when the cham is hunting. Most chams LOVE to hunt and shoot flying insects.

Have you found any steady ways of obtainig your flying insects. I go around the house and grab flies from the windows and moths from my flood light but I hardly seem to get numbers that would seem adequate to feed all my Chams. I am however very into fly fishing and when theres a big hatch on the creek there are millions of bugs around mostly things like evening Dunns, cahills, and cadis flys as well as several species of dragon fly. would these insects be safe because if so ive hit the jack pot. What is your opinion on green inch worms they are another thing of abundance around here in upstate Ny but I havent tried to use them as food are they safe? Are caterpillars poisonous before they turn into butterflies?Any opinions would be appreciated

....cadis flys as well as several species of dragon fly.

please don't use dragonflies as cham food. Some are actually endangered, they are very beneficial in that they are insectivorous and eat mosquitoes and they are just totally cool insects - ever looked at one closely?? It would be like feeding your cham a monarch butterfly
What is your opinion on green inch worms they are another thing of abundance around here in upstate Ny but I havent tried to use them as food are they safe? Are caterpillars poisonous before they turn into butterflies?Any opinions would be appreciated

there is not just one sort of 'green inch worm." the larvae of MANY moths and butterflies look like this and to the untrained eye may look this way for several instars. The beautiful Luna moth (you said you live in upstate NY? Then you have undoubtedly seen these amazing creatures!) caterpillar may look like a "green inch worm" when first hatched. And yes, some MAY be poisonous depending on what species it is. Did you know that Monarch Butterflies are poisonous? The caterpillar's ONLY host plant is the milkweed family, which all have poisonous sap, and the colors of the adult butterfly, and the caterpillar, too, is an "alert" to birds and other predators. On an interesting note, the Viceroy butterfly has evolved as a mimic to the Monarch (they look almost identical as adults) as a survival tactic - they are not poisonous at all but when a hungry blue jay sees it, it will pass it up as a snack...just some interesting trivia

lele

no dragonfly's? just because they are cool? What about mantids, they're practiaclly chameleons themselves, just watch them. the eyes, the movements, the hunting methods-nearly identical.

I know what you mean though. I hate the thought of something "desirable" being fed to something else...like watching an ugly rear fanged snake eat chameleons on nature shows...it really pissed me off, as it was obvious they were being FED to the snakes for the camera. I guess they were easy to catch, and didn't get away.
Also, I like it when they show one of the uglier tree boas eating a beautiful parrot. I can't help but think a $50 snake eating a $2000 parrot...hehe.
Eric A

As humans we have to assign a $ value to everything.
But I know what you mean probably because I have an African Grey parrot but no snakes.

boy are you twisted! LOL - just kidding. Well, as for the dragonflies I did give other reasons besides them being cool and as for mantids I wouldn't feed them to cham's either b/c, as you put it, they are practically like chams!

B/c of my fascination, raising and interest in insects as a whole there are certain things I would not feed them - hornworms being one of them, but that’s b/c I have actually had them as "pets.” I hand fed a crippled adult (which is a sphinx moth) for 5 days...I know, I am a bit "buggy.” When I first got my tarantula, I had a tough time feeding it crix - not because I think they are especially "cute" or anything – I just had a tough time. Now I fling them into her web and watch her go! The fact that she eats them quickly makes it easier

I agree with you on the stuff “for the camera” – ugh! Fortunately, I have never seen the snake/cham meal…and re: the parrot…well, can’t quite agree with you there
>>no dragonfly's? just because they are cool? What about mantids, they're practiaclly chameleons themselves, just watch them. the eyes, the movements, the hunting methods-nearly identical.
>>
>>I know what you mean though. I hate the thought of something "desirable" being fed to something else...like watching an ugly rear fanged snake eat chameleons on nature shows...it really pissed me off, as it was obvious they were being FED to the snakes for the camera. I guess they were easy to catch, and didn't get away.
>> Also, I like it when they show one of the uglier tree boas eating a beautiful parrot. I can't help but think a $50 snake eating a $2000 parrot...hehe.
>>Eric A

what you might stumble across will really bother you (like they did me). I accidentally ran across a page where someone shows pic's from their trip to Madagascar...beautiful pic's, cham's and othere animals...but a few pictures really got to me. One was of a snake biting a chameleon, and the cham was turned around craning it's neck with it's mouth open to try to bite the snake. So sad...
Another was of a boa gulping down a cham...ugh
The last was of a large cham snatching up a juvenile cham with it's tongue...REALLY sad...good shot, sad picture. I think I'm scarred now. It definitely bothered me, thought I know it's the way nature works...I'd prefer not to see it.
So, if you run across this page, let most of the thumbnails stay thumbnails!
Kristen

I understand all the sentimental stuff and in some aspects I can respect it but what I want to know is what bugs my chameleon would be picking out of the air if he happened to be sitting in some tree out in the wild(I highly doubt he shares your sentiments on whats a cool bug and whats not) In all honesty I think gutloade crickets are on the bottom of his personal menu and sometimes I think he looks at me like I'm a crack patty when I feed him the same three or four types of bugs over and over again. In short I want to know what he would choose first if he had a plate infront of him with every bug on it?(not what you would choose for him)

I have a big veild, and a trio of adult deremensis, as well as two juvi...plus the dead male C.B. deremensis. Well, I raise hissing roaches, orange headed roaches, and lobster roaches, waxworms, silkworms(on occation) and superworms. This is so I can avoid spending money on the most disgusting, noisy, smelly, and escape prone of them all--crickets. And do you know what is the favorite food of the exotic animals???? CRICKETS.
I get SOOO ticked off at them. My new deremensis will apparantly eat anything, well, the female , anyway. My old female actually ate an adult hisser(it had just shed, so it was all soft and delicious. She's actually a mammoth chameleon too, bigger than any other female chameleon I've ever seen besides a parsonii or melleri. But she loves crickets more than anything else. And superworms too. I bet they'd love grasshoppers better, but that's a different issue. I go through all the trouble to raise of all things, COCKA-ROACHES and I get the ones that will only eat crickets and mealworms....

Well, to begin with cham's would be feeding on insects that are indigenous to its habitat and have co-evolved to keep the balance of nature - we are the ones that throw everything out of whack (no, I am not looking to begin a thread on humans and nature - deal with it all the time in my field).

Secondly, I would not be there (thank goodness! LOL) to see it pluck a butterfly out of the air

Third, since we make a choice to import, breed and keep these animals we also have made a choice to offer it the best we can within the confines of our ability - dependent on the laws, availablitiy, toxicity, etc.

And lastly, on a personal note, I know a lot of herp keepers (not necessarily cham keepers) have no problem with, and some actually enjoy, feeding mammals to their snakes and other carnivores - that is their choice. This is why I will not own a snake, but that's just me. When I got Rose, my tarantula, I decided not to feed her pinkies (newborn mice) b/c I just cannot do it and she does not need them to live - they really are treats for her species since she is arboreal and you don't find too many mammals in the tree canopy - well not that a 4" T could manage! She will survive just fine on crix and other treats. So much of it is a personal ethical thing (I am not condemning, judging, or looking for a fight and we all make our choices.

Boy, I am in an especially talkative mood today, huh?

lele

Mine always choose bright green insects over any other.

When I was little we were told that there was a $50 fine for killing a praying mantis. I think my dad started that rumor since he was an organic farmer and he knew that they were beneficial insects (even though they also kill other beneficials). I soon figured out that there was no fine but always respected the praying mantis anyway. I am now 40 yrs old and to this day I could never kill one on purpose. I've probably killed a few with my mower but feeding one to my chameleon just seems like a “crime”.

We humans sure are a mess. Well, me anyway.

Greg White, NJ

I promise you all I will never ever feed my Cham a dragon fly or a Mantis if somebody will just answer my question.

WHAT WOULD MY CHAM CHOOSE TO EAT IF HE HAD EVERY TYPE OF FOOD IMAGINABLE SITTING RIGHT INFRONT OF HIM?

Im looking for a straight answer here not somebody's holier than thou are tangent. I've honestly put some time into looking for this answer both on this forum and various other places on the net and I realy just cant find a definitive answer

...you are rubbing some of us the wrong way in just the few days you have been posting. You really need to re-read your posts and realize what they will sound like to readers before you hit that enter key. Personally, I resent your crack about my "holier than thou tangent" as I was very careful to let it be known that it was only MY opinion and I was not foisting it upon you or anyone else. Your comment alone makes you seem a bit high and mighty.

That said, I will give you the information you are looking for…again, as I gave you it in my previous post. You will not find a definitive answer b/c they would not only choose one type of insect. They have a plethora to choose from and therefore would pick and choose on availability, state of hunger, etc. Few insectivorous creatures eat only one type of insect (though there are some) and some chameleons are omnivores and eat fruit, etc. as well. They, like us, prefer variety.

a quote from http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/food.html:

The diet of a wild chameleon is made up of countless species of insects and other small invertebrates as well as vertebrates. Many chameleons are also reported to eat some wild berries and other vegetable matter. Some of the larger chameleon species will eat small birds, reptiles, and mammals. It is therefore logical to assume that chameleons have evolved to consume a diet that is highly diverse and complex.

from: http://www.reptilevet.com/chamel.htm

Food: In the wild, the chameleon is an omnivore. They sit on tree limbs waiting for their next meal to walk by. They will visually stalk or even climb after their prey. The eyes, which rotate independently 360 degrees, fixate forward on potential prey. When prey is spotted they coat their tongue with a sticky saliva, they open their mouth with their tongue protruding slightly. The end of the tongue is a bundled, accordion folded muscle surrounding a modified hyoid bone. When released the tongue, roughly the length of the chameleons body, shoots out, sticks to, and essentially grabs the prey. The tongue then retracts pulling the prey into the chameleons mouth. Chameleons eat a varied diet consisting of flies, crickets, grasshoppers, butterflies, roaches, arachnids, waxworms, stick insects, mealworms, etc. The largest species also can eat small mammals, small birds, and other lizards. In captivity, this meal pattern is impractical.

hope this helps answer you question

lele

Calm down. Letting your self get worked up over little things like this all the time isn't good for your ticker.As for your answer to my question it was nice but it wasnt as specific as I wanted it to be, but I think thats my fault for not being clear enough. what I want to know is outside of crickets and grass hoppers are there any natural prey items of Chams that can be found here in the U.S. as well (dual citizenship food supplies)
If grasshoppers and crickets can be found in both places there has to be more. Sorry for offending you AGAIN

Did I sound upset? If I were upset you'd have seen a lot of excalmation points and faces and I would not have bothered to try and give you an answer - so please don't patronize. BTW, it was not me you offended last time so besides watching what you say pay attention to who you are saying it to.

OK, again, on to your question...Due to the variety that inhabit the globe there would certainly be some (actually quite a bit) overlap - grasshoppers here, grasshoppers there. However, b/c of the major difference in habitat, environment, ecosystems, etc. the species will be different, they (insect) will feed on different plants, thus different nutrition factors; size will vary, etc.

There are over 350,000 known beetles (not insects, just beetles)worldwide, and many unknown, and the variation within species is tremendous. A similar beetle here and one in Africa may be perfectly safe for it there (co-evolution), but the one in U.S. might kill it. I am not being sarcastic or melodramatic - this is a fact and there are several cases. If you look at the post to Ron "Wondering about bugs" the assassin bug he showed pix of have some relatives that are poisonous (blood-sucking cone nose)and some that are benign vegetarians (Leaf-footed bug) and they are both indigenous here in the states.

I am not trying to give you a hard time here I am just pointing out that with all the variables that need to be considered there really cannot be a definitive answer. Even if there there is a "favorite" food it would probably be different for each cham species, too.

If you do happen to find a definitive answer to this I would be very interested in learing about it and the source. Once again....

lele

>>Calm down. Letting your self get worked up over little things like this all the time isn't good for your ticker.As for your answer to my question it was nice but it wasnt as specific as I wanted it to be, but I think thats my fault for not being clear enough. what I want to know is outside of crickets and grass hoppers are there any natural prey items of Chams that can be found here in the U.S. as well (dual citizenship food supplies)
>>If grasshoppers and crickets can be found in both places there has to be more. Sorry for offending you AGAIN

Mine will choose green insects over all others. Just make sure you are not feeding them something toxic. Sometimes I just dust crickets and silkworms with powdered spirulina and that even works.

When I free roam the crickets I provide either some gutload or fish flakes in a shallow lid somewhere in the cage for the crickets to nibble on if they get hungry. That way they won't snack on your cham. It also keeps them gutloaded if the chams do not eat them right away.
When I cup feed them I like to use a glass pyrex measuring cup that I wire to a branch or to his cage using twist ties or wires around the handle. I usually put a tiny bit of gutload at the bottom of the cup to keep the crickets gutloaded throughout the day.