Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I must say, reading these posts are quite entertaining. Many folks are are critquing and criticizing Steve Irwin's crocodilian handling/capture techniques. I'm curious why? How many of you have grown up with those species of crocs? or better yet...captured/relocated those same species?
The one post that that stood out somewhat...stated he ( Irwin ) uses a lower jaw rope technique...thats an UPPER jaw technique...maybe this is petty...but if ya want to criticize...do it correctly. If any of you can do a better job...do it. Maybe we can all view your shows lol. One last thing, I find it funny that folks here do criticize...yet will be like..Hey, I have 3 caimans, 2 gators, etc...yet have some 8x8 pen...what a joke, talk about terrible care/containment of a species that SHOULD have lots of space...not a 55 gallon tank...or a stock tank or a fenced in 8x8 pen...Anyway, I realize people have a right to their own opinions...have a great day.

I agree that it's sometimes petty to criticize others, but I also like to see what different individuals have to say about others in the field. I find it amazing that so many people that love the same animals and hobby can have such a wide range of views, thoughts and emotions about it.

I found Renee's post (Redhead) very interesting and I read it several times through just to make sure I had absorbed it all. For some reason I feel that she has more of a right to criticize others in the field as she is also out there waist deep in the mud and the gore. She not only has earned this (right?) but she knows a lot more about the situation and the man (Irwin) personally. So I tend to listen more when this form of credibility is apparent and is worn on the sleeve.

I have never liked Irwin's overly brutal manner of capturing and moving crocs, but I have always kind of understood and accepted that these risky techniques are somewhat neccesary to draw in the audience. I don't think there would be anywhere near as many people watching if he didn't do things that clearly could result in him losing a limb or even his life. Personally, I do think that he places himself in this realm of danger and on a different level I admire this greatly. Whether it is about his ego, his bank account, or ultimately about educating and helping the animals themselves,... he is one of the few doing it and ultimately it does get information and awareness out to the general public. I think for future generations as a whole to be aware and to care about these magnificent reptiles is a wonderful thing. I have no doubt whatsoever that Irwin contributes to just this. So I try to overlook the little things that are annoying or "unprofessional". What is the old saying?,.... "The end justifies the means"

Personally, I think it is more important to affect and influence the future generations that aren't even herpers yet, than to appease or entertain present day herpers or wannabe herpers. I think that no matter what one's opinion on the subject may be that this cannot be denied as the most important thing where the future of the animals is concerned.

>>I must say, reading these posts are quite entertaining. Many folks are are critquing and criticizing Steve Irwin's crocodilian handling/capture techniques. I'm curious why? How many of you have grown up with those species of crocs? or better yet...captured/relocated those same species?
>>The one post that that stood out somewhat...stated he ( Irwin ) uses a lower jaw rope technique...thats an UPPER jaw technique...maybe this is petty...but if ya want to criticize...do it correctly. If any of you can do a better job...do it. Maybe we can all view your shows lol. One last thing, I find it funny that folks here do criticize...yet will be like..Hey, I have 3 caimans, 2 gators, etc...yet have some 8x8 pen...what a joke, talk about terrible care/containment of a species that SHOULD have lots of space...not a 55 gallon tank...or a stock tank or a fenced in 8x8 pen...Anyway, I realize people have a right to their own opinions...have a great day.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Although I know I am in a minority in my views amongts my colleagues (from a professional herpetological view), I will only say this..... "condemnation without investigation is the first law of ignorance". How many of us truly know Steve, his wife, his staff, his zoo, etc.? I will tell you what I do know, this man has a real passion for reptiles like many of us. He has been raised being around crocs and although his techniques may differ from the "established" protocols, does that mean that they are wrong? I personally don't think so. Having talked to several of his close friends, I feel fairly confident in saying that Steve always has the best interest of the animals at hand. My family enjoy watching his antics and although they may seem reckless at times, I truly feel that he has a special gift in working with reptiles that should certainly not be tried by the average person (and I tell my daughters that)...lets remember folks, this is TV! His facilities at the Australia Zoo are beautiful and I would venture to say that most private keepers' facilities for their "crocs" are slums compared to what he provides. So what's all the fuss about? Is it jealousy?

I for one would have loved to have had all of the various wildlife shows available to me as a child. Instead, I greetily looked forward to Marlin Perkins' Wild Kindgom and Jacques Cousteau...it was the highlight of my week. Did Marlin and his staff do everything "by the book" back in those days? Of course not, but thanks to those early years' influence of shows like this, I now have a wonderful career in the herpetological field. Many kids who visit my wildlife center watch "The Croc Hunter" and I will only say that he has done FAR more good than harm. Crocs Rule!

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
1401 Middlefork Drive
Lake Forest, Illinois 60045
847-615-4388

Actually, - though I'm sure no one except the few who have caught wild crocs for research even care one iota about this - Irwin has repeatedly lassoed the upper - OR lower - jaw as his "technique". I call it the TV technique, because it makes for better TV, but not for better capture. The idea, for anyone lassoing big crocs in the future, is to lasso the entire snout, closed - so, um, it cannot BITE, before you tape it.

I have worked with one of the best croc researchers in Venezulea (Carlos Chavez.). He had an arm badly broken by a 3-year old "baby" croc - and I've seen another worker almost decapitated by a very big, usually sloth-like captive croc, that decided one day to have a go at the guy holding the beef, instead of the beef itself. Crocs deserve nothing, if not respect, and cameramen, and producers - who influence presenters, like Irwin, forget this. Seen it.

With help I've caught large Orinoco crocs, and I learned by watching, at first. I've also seen some young researchers imitating Irwin's, or Barr's style. I've seen Barr catch a male croc, daytime, and restrain it, when it was nearby another male, that of course came over and beat up on the restrained male, while the guys stared and wondered what to do. Photographers ALWAYS want to film the really big male crocs being caught, which more than once has resulted in the croc dying from lactic acid toxicity, b/ they struggled so hard...all for a TV spot.

Having watched a lot of nature filmakers at work, I think there is no harm whatsoever in criticizing their work ("they" meaning producer, writer, photographer, AND presenter) because the mdeium of TV is ripe for exploitation, with the animals being the easiest victims - and they don't get paid. Some will do anything "just to get the shot", the stories I could tell... If the creators of these nature shows know that at least some of their audience DOES have an interest in accuracy, and the welfare of the animals, then at least the creators will, hopefully, maintain a little bit of a standard above what simply is sensationalistic enough to make money. I think it's also important that they know their average audience is way more intelligent than they give them credit for, and thus maybe they can write with substance.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Biologists, opinionated?....never.

R.O.

Well said, Renee...

Renee, I've agreed with much of what you said recently, but I need to set the record straight regarding upper jaw capture of saltwater crocodiles.

First, no single capture technique is suitable for every situation and every species of crocodilian. In this case, noosing both jaws certainly does not work with salties.

Saltwater crocs are masters at slipping out of a noose tied around both jaws, and it's quite unsafe. The upper jaw noose was developed back in the 1970s by Grahame Webb and Harry Messel to address this, and it's the method we continue to use today. The reason we noose the upper jaw is simple - the rope is prevented from slipped off the jaw by the enlarged fourth tooth, meaning that a proper noose will never come loose. Yes, the crocodile still has its jaws open and capable of biting, but the next stage of the capture is to close and secure those jaws. This depends on the size of the animal, but with large crocs the jaws are typically closed using a second noose. Steve Irwin probabably doesn't do this - I've never seen him do it - but it's a standard technique we've developed, and the technique we teach.

In all the years I've caught both wild and captive salties (and witnessed others do it) I can't recall a jaw injury as a direct result of a rope noose itself. Tooth loss from struggling is possible, but that depends mainly on subsequent handling technique.

I agree about noosing the lower jaw - definitely not recommended. The stress placed on the upper jaw during noosing is well within the skull's ability to resist, but the lower jaw is far weaker and may be dislocated or broken by a twisting, rolling croc. In the rare case when the noose has tightened on the wrong jaw (ie. croc bites noose and pulls back), we immediately slacken the rope and use a hook to release the noose before starting again.

Noosing around the neck is also not good for salties, as they can do quite a bit of damage to the skin around the neck in their attempts to free themselves while rolling. Neck noosing does work for many other species, however, like alligators and caimans, and is recommended for more slender snouted species where jaw roping would place too much stress on the skull. Conversely, upper jaw noosing is no good for alligators and caimans due to their more uniformly-sized teeth.

So ultimately, different techniques are required for different crocodilians.

Regarding TV crews, the person in charge of the crocs has - in my opinion - the most power to draw the line. We've worked with a lot of crews from a lot of countries, and ultimately it comes down to what we say is safe, and what we say is fine for the crocs. Out of around 60 crews, I can count on one hand those who had a real problem with that. Had we not taken this stance, and gone with some of the crazier suggestions and requests, we might have come across quite differently. In other words, I'd say it's down to the person handling the crocs and talking the science to influence what's being shown. I agree - I've seen some very bad techniques shown on TV, although I'll concede that film crews will tend to show any mistakes that are made, rather than the multiple times you do it right! It's happened to me, so I've learned to be very careful what we do and what we say.

And this is from someone who was once criticised by a film crew as being "too professional" when he caught a croc, that it was "boring to watch". My response was "Sorry guys, it's my life and it's our croc. Go call Steve instead if you want dangerous drama, but this is how we do things here."

Best wishes,

Adam

I never caught a saltie longer than 1 m and Adam is very experienced in doing this. Putting the rope over both jaws worked pretty well on niles and cubans, we caught last weekend for marking.
Ralf

Interesting. I guess I'd have to see failed attempts on crocs where the closed mouth noose doesn't work, or slips off repeatedly, before I was sold on the 70's method. Not that I don't believe you, just stubborness on my part. No doubt I do have a bias, since I worked mostly with large caiman, and Orinoco's, although I've watched a variety of species caught and handled.

I agree, it is up to the scientist to call for "quality control" when catching crocodilians - or anything, for that matter. Problem is when you get presenters, or whoever, who don't know/care what is best, and let the film crew tell them what to do. They can be very persuasive, if you let them, the key is to try and educate them while setting limits, I think.

R

More information on the capture methods we use can be found here:

WEBB, G. J. W. & MESSEL, H., 1977, Crocodile capture techniques. Journal of Wildlife Management, 41: 572-575.

WALSH, B., 1987, Crocodile capture methods used in the Northern Territory of Australia. pp. 249-252. In: G. J. W. Webb, S. C. Manolis & P. J. Whitehead (eds.), Wildlife Management: Crocodiles and Alligators. Surrey Beatty & Sons Pty Lim., Chipping Norton, Australia.

(the first paper was the original work)

If you're coming to Darwin for the CSG meeting in May, I'll show you myself why we use particular methods, but ultimately - regardless of the guidelines - it's up to the operator to know when to apply the most appropriate one.

Best wishes,

Adam