Reptile & Amphibian Forums

my jackson's has become addicted to pill bugs. he wont eat crickets anymore and im not sure he even knows what a mealworm is. I got him last week and right after he got in the cage he ate three crickets...i think he ate so many becuase he was in shipping for two days.

anyways he hasn't eaten cricket since then. the breeder says he feed them on grasshoppers and crickets which i want to know where he got grasshoppers in the winter..

how can i get him off pill bugs.

how do you think he got grasshoppers in the winter (breeder wont e-mail me anymore)

oh and yes his temps are right and so is the humidity. he gets sun when it is out otherwise he has a 5.o uvb tube. his cage is a reptarium

First, you can't get grasshoppers commercially shipped because they are a major agricultural pest. The breeder may be down south (FL) and have wild ones around most of the year. Jax love pillbugs and there is no reason you can't give them to him. You can set up a colony and breed them yourself. Go out into gardens and look under boards, pots, logs etc. and gather as many as you can. Set them up in a terrarium with topsoil, leaves, and hides. Feed them veggies and greens. As for the addiction, this happens pretty often when a cham gets a new interesting food. You'll just have to wait him out.

This whole 'agricultural pest' thing has me ticked off.
First, I understand the reason for putting restrictions on a potential pest. I'm not debating that. I grow bonsai commercially, so I understand about agricultural pests.
Second, I'm talking specifically about the agricultural laws of the state of California. Don't know what the laws are elsewhere.
What has me ticked off is that there are certain 'agricultural pests' (i.e. hornworms!) that are allowed to be sold for chameleon food, while others are not allowed except for research, or education purposes. Specifically, stick insects.
Why are hornworms allowed and not stick insects? Seems to me that an 'agricultural pest' is an 'agricultural pest'. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

stick insects aren't very good feeders...they basicly are like giving your chameleon a stick.

anyways i found a female pill bug in my batch today that was the color of a macaroni and cheese crayola crayon....is it albino?
sorry no pic.

is there a difference in the pill bugs that run fast and the pill bugs that roll up?? I have the runners

what do pill bugs eat specificly?...I have hundreds in a 10 gallon tank that has nasty wood that crumbies easily and soaks up water,some slabs of bark,some spagum moss,a chunk of drift wood,some strage dirt that came from an infested log(filled with tons of pillbugs),and i recently put a few peices of lettice just to see.

By any chance do you know if roaches sold as feeders for reptiles are illegal in california? Specifially death heads, orange spotted, discoid, and lobster roaches? I have been trying to get information if it is legal to own/breed or not since I want to try them.

You will probably have to check with a state agricultural inspection office or a state office of USDA to be sure. Check the gov't pages in the phone book for offices to try. Most roaches sold as feeders are tropical and may not thrive well enough to breed if released.

I spoke with my local County Dept of Ag. regarding the keeping of exotic roaches for the purpose of feeding to my chameleons. According to the nice lady at County, all roaches are considered agricultural pests and you need a permit (which is free) to keep any roaches. But she stated that even IF you do have a permit, Dept of Ag. can confiscate any and all roaches you keep if your collection gets too big, or are on public display.
Further, she suggested that the permit is not really all that important, as California is re-writing its agricultural pest laws and exotic roaches are soon to be declassified as agricultural pests. She went on to suggest that if you're keeping roaches, don't worry, no one's going to 'bust' you as long as you're not displaying them somewhere - just keep a low profile about it.
Therein lies my frustration. You're not supposed to have them, but no one's going to do anything if you DO have them. They have a 'don't ask, don't tell' sort of thing going. I know I wasn't of help, sorry.
>>By any chance do you know if roaches sold as feeders for reptiles are illegal in california? Specifially death heads, orange spotted, discoid, and lobster roaches? I have been trying to get information if it is legal to own/breed or not since I want to try them.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Thanks for the information. I guess I will just keep my colony to myself.

Here is what I found regarding what insects are legal to move around and import into california.

http://pi.cdfa.ca.gov/pqm/manual/111.htm

>>Thanks for the information. I guess I will just keep my colony to myself.
>>
>>Here is what I found regarding what insects are legal to move around and import into california.
>>
>>http://pi.cdfa.ca.gov/pqm/manual/111.htm
Thanks for the link! I noticed that hornworms were listed as insects that could be moved around and imported into California even though they are an agricultural pest.
When I got my hornworms, I got a nice form letter that stated that by possessing hornworms and receipt of this letter, I have effectively given the Dept of Agriculture the right to enter my home and inspect the hornworms, how they are kept, and my disposal methods.
I guess my question is this: if I'm not required to keep a permit, what's the point of this cute letter?
I dunno, I'm just irritated.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

So when they enter your home, are you supposed to have the hornworms on a leash or something?

Greg

I'll take a stab at this, OK? A lot of it may have to do with the reproductive biology of the "pest" and who sells it. First, a company like Carolina Biological has various USDA licenses to sell specific insects, and hornworms are very specific feeders on one or two types of plants from birth. Maybe they ship them across state lines as long as they tell customers not to release anything. Grasshoppers are voracious on many types of crops and can reproduce amazingly fast. Hornworms not so. Also, many insects cultivated for feed or science are actually sterilized or are nonviable hybrids. (I think most commercial waxworms are) Most cockroaches sold for feeders or science are tropical species that would not survive to breed in N. America anyway. Stick insects also eat a wide variety of crop or ornamental plants so are probably considered a bigger threat than hornworms.

I have experimented feeding them different things to gutload them with and so far they have eaten green peppers, green pepper plants, dandilion greens, kale, cabbage, mustard greens and any other green thing I have tried. Maybe they won't reproduce when they eat these things. I have not tried breeding them so I do not know. So maybe they can't survive long term on these things but they sure eat them.

Victor,

I live in NH, have a degree in Horticulture, studying entomology (bugs ), use ecological and organic practices and am very involved in the invasive (plants and insects) issues here in New England. I only tell you all this to give you an idea of where I am coming from...that said, I see your confusion. However, depending on the hornworms, many are "host-specific" meaning that in their larval stage (caterpillar) they eat only certain plants. In the case of the Tobacco and Tomato hornworms (Manduca sexta and M. quinquemaculata) they only eat plants in the Solanacae family (potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, etc. If they are allowed to get to their final instar (caterpillar end stage) they will pupate in the ground for 9-10 months and will emerge as adults in June/July(of course this will vary in different parts of the country) to begin the cycle again. Grasshoppers on the other hand will eat plants from many different families, as do stick insects, so they have a much greater impact on agriculture – everywhere. The import of exotic (not indigenous to either a specific region or country) insects can cause even more severe problems b/c they do not have their natural predators and pathogens to keep them in check – for the record, this is true for plants, too. Yet in other cases, as Carlton pointed out, some simply cannot complete their full life cycle b/c they do not have an appropriate host plant, cannot tolerate the temperature extremes, or are easily preyed upon by a native species or pathogen.

As far as USDA laws…well, like many laws they are in place as fall back and/or to be used at discretion (not that this is right – it just is a fact of living in the USA). The form letters are so someone can say that they have followed the law and informed you – in case something goes to court. Look at our pesticide laws…a landscaper needs to be licensed for pesticide use but the homeowner can go into their local home dept, buy poisons off the shelf and use it randomly with no clue as to what the hell they are even using it for! (sorry – really pisses me off!) I was at a local hardware store recently and overheard a woman say that lady bugs were eating her plants (she described the plants as “something like a sunflower” meaning she didn’t even know what she was growing!) and she wanted something to kill them all! YIKES! Ladybugs do not eat ANY plants and are actually beneficial. Anyway, you get my point.

Sorry this is a bit long, but there is my professional and personal opinion and knowledge. I happen to rear some hornworms for educational programs (have about 20 going right now) and they are used in research b/c of their size and low percentage of loss. Well, that’s all folks!

lele

Lele;
I can appreciate the reasons behind the laws designed to protect agricultural products and do understand the concepts behind trying to keep invasive species from being introduced where they have no natural predators and could cause severe damage. I'm just a bit frustrated that I'm unable to keep the types of insects (i.e. Indian Walking Stick, Australian Spiny, leaf insects, exotic roaches) that I would like to keep because they're considered agricultural pests.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

You wouldnt be thinking that way when there's a food phamon and all the tree's in your yard are bare. Sure that sounds a little far fetched at first but when you introduce an indian walking stick into an environment like cali or florida were it stays warm all year and that bug has no natural preditors. It will just keep multiplying and multiplying and multiplying and well you get it. Sometimes you just have to look at the big picture and the big picture says unstopable reproduction is a plague. look at humans.

Yes, I understand. I was just pointing out why some are considered pests and others not (the host plant thing). As for keeping stuff my feeling is - if someone will ship it to you and you are using for feeder (where it will never live to adulthood and you certainly aren't going to set them free), then check into that free permit situation. Do what they expect you to do and the chances that they will be knocking on your door is pretty slim unless a neighbor complains about all the noise the roaches make (ha-ha, just kidding).

If they are kept as pets just be sure not to ever let them get out. There are serious problems with invasive aqauatic plants that began from someone innocently dumping their aquarium into a body of water a decade or so ago, that contained exotic species which are now having devastaitng effects.

If they cannot be shipped to your state then there is good reason - sorry.

If you want to see some intense discussions on this subject by serious insect collectors, traders, etc. go to:

Insects: legal and environmental issues