Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i will start a new thread.... now while most all of us here care for the welfare and welbeing of our geckos none of us are perfect...... i am sure if enough paper towels are eaten it would cause a serious problem and yes even impaction.... what about humid hide substrate? same thing there. oh and also the medium in which we incubate and hatch out leos too. shoot if a miniscule piece of slate tile (because true slate is very flakey)
was to break off and your leo ate it i bet it would do alot more damage than impaction ever would... just imagine pooin out a razor blade.......and all the damage it might in the stomache,large and small intestine colon and rectum.....

so there is always going to be a debate about substrate but dont think just because you use this method or that method nothing will happen and that you have perfect husbandry .... sh!t happens
we as hobbyest fo our best to provide our animals with the best we know of due to our experieces and our research.... i am sure someone can prove sand killed their leo... but what about an unexplained death of a perfectly health leo on papertwols and the necropsy comes up inconclusive or points to some sorta impaction but not sand or perhaps severe internal bleeding caused by an "unknown" object. it could be a number of things ........... what works for one may not be suitable for another... but with proper husbandry research and EXPERIENCE we can make those conclusions on our own and share OUR experiences not something we read or made an assumption of...........
because if this is the case you all of you think you are so immune to impaction or unexplained death (for those of you who are agains a sertain husbandry method and use other methods) you are only fooling yourself..... i saw bill post its not the sand that kills its the improper husbandry and i agree...... if you use sand fine but use the right kind,clean it frequuently, make sure no sand gets in food or water bowls ect.....
you ever had a leo gecko poo in its water bowl (unles you follow your gecko around hands cupped waiting for the next turd and snatch it up before it his the bowl)??? and ok so ya dont know how long that turd has been sitting in there and you change it or your tired and decide to change the water first thing in the morning.... well essentially you forcing your gecko to eat its own poo... nice huh??? so how does this relate to substrate and sand and all the other parasitie stuff.....
thats bad husbandry but it happens but because of that it could result in possible bacterial infections or whatever
NONE of use are immune to ANYTHING... we just try and do the best we can with what knowledge and experience we have... we as humans are able to make choices and reagrdless of the outcome may be good or bad...
so if you think you are immunne i suggest you set up your animals as gecko god breifly described....
and personally even in that sterile of an environment sh!t can happen too..........
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

I guess your starting this back up again. I reread your post a couple of times and couldnt find a point. Of course nobody is perfect and nobody is immune. There is no way to keep a lizard 100% safe. But there is safer routes than others and less riskier routes than others. Precautions can be made. It all depends on how much you care about your animal.

apparantly you did find my point since you mentioned it in your reply......
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

///

I see what your getting at and dont disagree, BUT I was hell bent on playsand as substrate and my leo would walk through his water dish and then go stand in the sand. Which over 2/3 of substrate was tile. Anyway then my leo is standing there with these big sand club feet and a sand beard. Which was damn cute I might add. But I thought screw this and went paper towel. Its just plain easier now and believe it or not the set up still looks cool. Not to mention that sand somehow sticks to the seals of the aquarium then when u wipe clean, u scratch glass. Its just a pain in the ass for a juvie IMO.

Thats just my input< thanks for listening

you tried it and didnt care for it and changed to paper towels.... your opinions were based on your experience us9ing this substate
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

Very good point, one I hadn't thought of. The issue comes in then when 60% of leo owners say "Dont use this" and people do it anyway. I'm not just talking about sand and I would rather get away from that debate, what about waxworms. A large number of people say in their opinions waxworms are too fatty to be given as a food staple. You have people out there that basically say "so what, that's your opinion I'm gonna do it anyway". It's supported by the majority! Well the whole point of these forums is to help, but you have people who dont want help they just want to cry and moan that others are being rude. When they refuse to take advice of the majority, forget fact or opinion, look at numbers..

alot of those people who say "dont use sand" have never even used it, it is not based on their own experiences... and the info they are getting is coming from pet stores, word of mouth and websites and trust me alot of the websites out there are incorrect, i have only seen a few thurough and complete caresheets
the wax worm thiing is thihs... wax worms should be not used as a staple, they are meant to be fed a couple tyimes a month as essentially a suplimentation of sorts and they help egg lay8ing females keep up some body weight while laying... but no to use them as a staple will give you an extremely fat geckos and chances are it will die an early death due to fatty liver disease
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

If you want to look at numbers, how about the countless numbers that have lived on sand for many years without any problems. Kinda makes you whonder why they were.are fine and a small handfull gets impacted. I can't say this enough...If a loe dies form impaction form sand, it is not the because it was on sand, it is because the owner failed to provide proper husbandry.

>>Very good point, one I hadn't thought of. The issue comes in then when 60% of leo owners say "Dont use this" and people do it anyway. I'm not just talking about sand and I would rather get away from that debate, what about waxworms. A large number of people say in their opinions waxworms are too fatty to be given as a food staple. You have people out there that basically say "so what, that's your opinion I'm gonna do it anyway". It's supported by the majority! Well the whole point of these forums is to help, but you have people who dont want help they just want to cry and moan that others are being rude. When they refuse to take advice of the majority, forget fact or opinion, look at numbers..
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

ok lets think of how a leo is in the wild.. do they have calcium powder on there crickets ? NO.
Do they get impaction out in the wild? Yes.
Do they pass mites in the wild? Yes
Do they get egg bound ? Yes
Do they have big huge fat tales? i dont think so
Are all the leos out in the wild healthy? NO
Do they have hids out in the wild ? i dont think so

now guys y r we fighting about this sand stuff again it is all yr own opinion. i like the way sand looks i checked into slate I DIDNT LIKE IT at all. so i am going 2 stick wit sand for right now and i dont want to get bombed wit you r not reponsible wit yr leos cause, i am very responsible. i want everything to look as life like for them (they dont live on paper in the wild lol). lets just stop fighting abpout this cause it will keep going on and on and on. i hope that you guys understand it

dont yell at me i was kinda trying to be the voice of reason......... i know several people who do and have in the pasted used sand and never once had a problem im not the "anti sand"
oh and btw......

"ok lets think of how a leo is in the wild.. do they have calcium powder on there crickets ? NO.
Do they get impaction out in the wild? Yes.
Do they pass mites in the wild? Yes
Do they get egg bound ? Yes
Do they have big huge fat tales? i dont think so
Are all the leos out in the wild healthy? NO
Do they have hids out in the wild ? i dont think so"

just to let you know some of the true answers to these questions you would be quite suprised at
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-robin struck
R2 Reptiles

i wasnt yelling i was talking 2 everyone else that fights and crap with this sand. it is all a matter of wat u think looks best and wat you want.

It's not a matter of what you want and what looks best...or at least it shouldn't be...of course that is part of it. The most important thing when choosing a substrate should be what's best for the animal. Choosing something just because you like it with no regard to the animal is...hate to say it again...irresponsible...as is not quarantining new animals. I'm trying to be civil here...and help other people's leos, because if it was up to me, no animal would ever die anywhere in anyone's care...that's why I want to be a vet. The only way to help people prevent their animals illness and/or death is to teach them proper husbandry which includes thinking about the animals health when choosing things they will be involved with, quarantining (depending on the species), feeding proper foods, etc. I can't stand idly by when I see people arguing false information. This isn't focused entirely on the substrate debate...this in general...I'm not even going to get into the sand debate right now...I think most of you already know my opinion.
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

Good, because the sand debate is a lot more complex than that. Leopard geckos dig. Some of them dig a lot. This behavior is thwarted in an environment where they have nothing to dig in.

Does that matter? Some would say yes--it does.

Two camps--some believe that the gecko's potential safety is the most important issue.
The others believe that the geckos should be allowed to exercise their full range of behaviors, even if providing for this means a small risk.

This is really about whether or not reptiles experience "quality of life" as we consider it...do they suffer psychologically if not allowed to exercise their full range of instinctive behaviors? The fact is, we do not know. So, we act in good conscience, and provide for them in the best way we BELIEVE.

Actual numbers on gecko deaths due to sand impactions are unavailable. The truth is, this could be something that happens vanishingly infrequently, but since someone brought it up once, anyone who's had a gecko die after it's been on sand has blamed the sand.
I also think some gecko lines may have an inherited behavioral problem...I hope to prove that theory one day. If it's true, then irresponsible and inattentive breeding has led to geckos prone to eating massive quantities of non-food items, and the substrate itself is not to blame.

"Do they get impaction out in the wild? Yes."

Do you know this as fact...if so, could you point me to some info about this?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

>>ok lets think of how a leo is in the wild.. do they have calcium powder on there crickets ? NO.
>>Do they get impaction out in the wild? Yes.
>>Do they pass mites in the wild? Yes
>>Do they get egg bound ? Yes
>>Do they have big huge fat tales? i dont think so
>>Are all the leos out in the wild healthy? NO
>>Do they have hids out in the wild ? i dont think so

Exactly. When you have an animal in captivity, you want to do your best to keep it alive. If they encounter all these problems in the wild, doesnt that mean you want to try and NOT let them encounter them in captivity? You want to keep your leos happy, but also healthy, and give them the best life possible.

I dont have any debate on substrate, just an opinion. ive used pretty much all of em (sand, carpet, dirt, paper towel, slate...) and I like slate the best. easier to feed em, looks real good, holds heat real well, and my leos can move around ten times easier on it. but thats just me
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~Melissa~
1.3 Leopard geckos (Guido, Oasis, Gypsy, Marli)
1.0 Bearded dragon (Pharoah)
1.0 Hog Island Boa (Michelangelo)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko (Picasso)
1.0 Ferret (da Vinci)
0.1 Chinchilla (Eevie)
And Jack the cat!

Melissas Menagerie

I just want to add to this..."I am sure someone can prove
sand killed their leo."

You can prove that you leo died of impaction caused by sand, but whay was it eating the sand in the first place. A heathly leo kept properly should not eat huge amounts of it's substrate. Also a leo kept right should be able to pass what it eats. My leos regularly eat the contents of there lay boxes(sand/bed-a-beast) and pass it.

>>i will start a new thread.... now while most all of us here care for the welfare and welbeing of our geckos none of us are perfect...... i am sure if enough paper towels are eaten it would cause a serious problem and yes even impaction.... what about humid hide substrate? same thing there. oh and also the medium in which we incubate and hatch out leos too. shoot if a miniscule piece of slate tile (because true slate is very flakey)
>>was to break off and your leo ate it i bet it would do alot more damage than impaction ever would... just imagine pooin out a razor blade.......and all the damage it might in the stomache,large and small intestine colon and rectum.....
>>
>>so there is always going to be a debate about substrate but dont think just because you use this method or that method nothing will happen and that you have perfect husbandry .... sh!t happens
>>we as hobbyest fo our best to provide our animals with the best we know of due to our experieces and our research.... i am sure someone can prove sand killed their leo... but what about an unexplained death of a perfectly health leo on papertwols and the necropsy comes up inconclusive or points to some sorta impaction but not sand or perhaps severe internal bleeding caused by an "unknown" object. it could be a number of things ........... what works for one may not be suitable for another... but with proper husbandry research and EXPERIENCE we can make those conclusions on our own and share OUR experiences not something we read or made an assumption of...........
>>because if this is the case you all of you think you are so immune to impaction or unexplained death (for those of you who are agains a sertain husbandry method and use other methods) you are only fooling yourself..... i saw bill post its not the sand that kills its the improper husbandry and i agree...... if you use sand fine but use the right kind,clean it frequuently, make sure no sand gets in food or water bowls ect.....
>>you ever had a leo gecko poo in its water bowl (unles you follow your gecko around hands cupped waiting for the next turd and snatch it up before it his the bowl)??? and ok so ya dont know how long that turd has been sitting in there and you change it or your tired and decide to change the water first thing in the morning.... well essentially you forcing your gecko to eat its own poo... nice huh??? so how does this relate to substrate and sand and all the other parasitie stuff.....
>>thats bad husbandry but it happens but because of that it could result in possible bacterial infections or whatever
>>NONE of use are immune to ANYTHING... we just try and do the best we can with what knowledge and experience we have... we as humans are able to make choices and reagrdless of the outcome may be good or bad...
>>so if you think you are immunne i suggest you set up your animals as gecko god breifly described....
>>and personally even in that sterile of an environment sh!t can happen too..........
>>-----
>>-robin struck
>>R2 Reptiles
-----
Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung