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I was just going over the classifieds and I see many ads advertising Adult Ball Pythons. The thing is, I don't consider a 600 gram Ball an Adult whether or not he is producing sperm plugs or not! I know this is a marketing tool, but does anyone actually believe this? If you can't sell females as adults at 600 grams, then why would you sell males that way?

Just wondering.

Mike

www.Herps-R-Us.com

>>I was just going over the classifieds and I see many ads advertising Adult Ball Pythons. The thing is, I don't consider a 600 gram Ball an Adult whether or not he is producing sperm plugs or not! I know this is a marketing tool, but does anyone actually believe this? If you can't sell females as adults at 600 grams, then why would you sell males that way?

Hey Mike,

I agree that the term 'adult' is likely being used incorrectly. I think 'possibly mature' would be better suited for the situation at hand (viable males). My albino male sired a clutch last season at only 18 months age and around the 600 gram mark. I was a bit surprised, but it was the females FIRST ever breeding, so I know the albino was viable and the father.

600 gram adult? No way... I have females well over the 3000 gram mark... Now THAT is adult! Hahaha...

Matt
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...a large part of defining adulthood in a male is: sperm in the vas deferens (ejaculatory duct). Sperm plugs are evidence of this. If a male weighs 400 gm and has sperm plugs, he is an adult.

Burmese pythons as young as 5 months old and 5 feet long have also been found with sperm plugs.

What is is!

Scott J. Michaels DVM

What does a sperm plug look like? Is it excreted with urates or by itself, etc?
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Yeah, well as far as I know most males of the human variety produce sperm as early as age 12. Are they adults? Capable of breeding doesn't make a mature animal in any case.
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Yeah, well as far as I know most males of the human variety produce sperm as early as age 12. Are they adults? Capable of breeding doesn't make a mature animal in any case.

If you were some alien being in the slave trade of humans, you would probably consider sexually mature males as adults. Cultural influences dictate us thinking that 12 year olds are not adults. 2000 years ago we only lived 34 years and some dudes were KINGS by the age of 10 and 11.

Developmentally, they are not mature. A 12 year old boy may be able to impregnate someone, but that doesn't make him mature. Same for snakes. An animal may be sexually mature and still not be a physically mature specimen. People USED to reproduce at that age because the life expectancy maxed out at 35, and if you didn't the species would die. Given ideal circumstances, which I'm sure we all give our animals, they should not have to reproduce until their physical maturity level is met. Would you argue that a 12 year old is physically mature? Would it be healthy PHYSICALLY for him to perform tasks equal to an adult?
In any case, I am of the opinion that animals should be allowed to reach both sexual and physical maturity before breeding.
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I'd always been under the impression that in the animal kingdom, animals were considered to reach maturity when they were able to breed. At least all the animals I've researched that's the info I've seen.
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Again, a difference in sexual vs physical maturity. Females produce follicles and are capable of breeding at 600 grams, too. Why don't they breed them that young? Because viable offspring rates drop because the animals isn't OLD enough to be bred successfully. It is sexually mature but not physically mature. I think the original question was "are 600 gram males considered adult". (forgive me if I misquote this.....) I think a 600 gram Ball Python would be considered a teen-ager.
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Again, a difference in sexual vs physical maturity. Females produce follicles and are capable of breeding at 600 grams, too. Why don't they breed them that young? Because viable offspring rates drop because the animals isn't OLD enough to be bred successfully. It is sexually mature but not physically mature. I think the original question was "are 600 gram males considered adult". (forgive me if I misquote this.....) I think a 600 gram Ball Python would be considered a teen-ager.

We see the downside to breeding females too small. Language semantics aside, what's the down side to breeding 600 gram males? Personally, I am OK with defining males and females differently.

Scoso
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My point isn't at what age you can breed them, I was using that as an example to set an age standard, which obviously didn't work. The question was, "is a 600 gram male an adult"? My answer is NO, using the difference between different rates of maturity to show that an animal can be old enough to breed, but NOT BE AN ADULT.

Original post:
I was just going over the classifieds and I see many ads advertising Adult Ball Pythons. The thing is, I don't consider a 600 gram Ball an Adult whether or not he is producing sperm plugs or not! I know this is a marketing tool, but does anyone actually believe this? If you can't sell females as adults at 600 grams, then why would you sell males that way?

Response:
Yeah, well as far as I know most males of the human variety produce sperm as early as age 12. Are they adults? Capable of breeding doesn't make a mature animal in any case.
(notice I say capable of breeding, meaning you CAN breed a 600 gram male)

Your response:
We see the downside to breeding females too small. Language semantics aside, what's the down side to breeding 600 gram males? Personally, I am OK with defining males and females differently.

Me, too. I'm OK with it. Males and females are different, but females are not considered ADULT until they can successfully breed, which is a huge difference from when males (supposedly) are considered mature simply because males can successfully breed at a smaller size. This still doesn't mean they are ADULT.
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I see your point about sexual vs physical maturity. So when are they considered physically mature? And how do you define/determine when they are adults?
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Sexual Maturity in animals doesn't necessarily mean they are physically mature, just capable to reproduce. In the wild, these young adult males are not likely to successfully breed in their first mating season. This isn't because they can't physically breed, but because all the bigger older males chase them off. I am very confident that a 600g male python would mate and produce offspring in a female if giving the opportunity. However, some females may not let a young physically immature but sexually mature male to mate with them, especially when there are full adults and more impressive males around she could choose from. It's instinctive for females animals to choose the most healthiest and strongest male to mate with, to ensure the survival of her young.

However, in the original post, it was stated would a 600g male python be considered an adult? That is what the seller is advertising, it really boils down to is if the Buyer things that is an Adult. To me, an Adult (in the animal sense) is when the creature has slowed down or stopped growing to it's normal adult size. So, if adult male pythons are closer to 1000g when full grown, then 600g certainly is a far cry from the adult weight but it could still be considered a young adult (ie mid teenage years).

.
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IMO, animals are considered adult when they have completed most (and I use that term loosely...I know reptiles continue to grow throughout their lives. So do some human characteristics i.e. : noses, ears, etc) of their growth or dropped their juvenile physiological characteristics.
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This has to be the most rediculous thread I have read in a long time. Snakes can in no way be compared to people. Sure, a 12 year old boy can reproduce, but can he provide for his child financially? Can he give his baby the care it needs? No! My point? Reptiles do not have to care for their young in this way. The male has nothing to do with it in fact. So yes, a male is an adult when it reaches sexual maturity. Most of us consider our males adults when they start successfully breeding females. Whether that is 500 grams or 800 grams, it makes no difference. Do you consider a female an adult at 1800 grams? Of course. Even though there are many breeding females that are 3000 grams and larger. That is a much bigger variance than even a 600 gram male and a 1000 gram male. I do agree that in the wild, the smaller adult males will not be able to readily breed with other big guys around. This is also true of 1000 gram males not being able to breed with a 1500 gram male in the same area. Does that mean the 1000 gram male is not an adult? In captivity, we go by a completely different set of rules than you would find in the wild. I have a 600 gram albino male that successfully bred 4 females this year. He did his adult job. I do not expect him to start a college fund for his babies.
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