Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this quote from a feb post on the hybrid forum:

" I've Hybridized Drymacharon c. couperi with Drymachqaron c. malanurus...the a year later the babies almost all looked like couperi"

How extensive is federal protection? My view is that the genetic contamination to couperi as part of our National Heritage is compromised by people who would engage in hybridization. I am aware others do not like this as well. But considering the above quote that indicates there are people doing this, does anyone know how the federal statutes of the ESA could be used to make hybridization of these animals illegal and a crime against National Biological heritage?

With increased marketing efforts now under way by hybridizing folk it looks like the pressure to continue to prod open the Pandora's Box with respect to couperi is being forwarded immensely at the moment.

I doubt that Fish and Wildlife, or any other government agency for that matter, will ever get into the business of legislating breeding / hybridization activity.

As long as an animal is legally-obtained, they could care less what kind of breeding is done with it, so long as animal abuse is not an issue.

And they would really have difficulty enforcing such laws ... you can always put enforcement people in the field, but you can't put them in people's homes.

The integrity and purity of future bloodlines is a burden that rests solely on the shoulders of breeders ... breeders like many in this forum, who see it as an honor to preserve an endangered species for the enjoyment of future generations.

My two cents, anyway.

Good questions. Take care!

-Brandon Cornett
www.nosnakeban.org

Federal protection regarding the inter-state transportation and collection of Drymarchon corais couperi;Eastern Indigo protect that snake. If people had chosen to breed these snakes with Melanarus, I dont beleive that the subsequent offspring would be protected by the same laws. But frankly, why would someone?

Think about it for a second from a financial standpoint:

From a strictly MONEY(And isnt that what motivates many would be hybrizidizers, that and boredom) it would be suicide, crossing a snake that has a high $$ value to a snake that has a LOWER dollar value to produce"Wallah" a snake that CAN'T be HONESTLY sold as a Eastern Indigo and when sold as a Melanarus, the Eastern blood does NOTHING to increase the value?

One of the things we have spoken of on this forum in the past is the DNA testing and microchipping of Easterns so that a National "Studbook" of sorts is established. I think it is a rather large project to take on, but a worthwhile one. For an animal that is endagered in the wild to come into the hands of those that would breed it to whatever they had available, with the subsequent offspring being PUMPED back into the pet trade to be sold as true Easterns, or even as "crosses" is unthinkable and wrong.

Bottem line, It stinks. And just like the guys on the Pituophis forum, who strive mightly to keep the different types of Pituophis, especially the rare types(P.Ruthveni for example) pure and not hybridized, crossed, or bred with other types of Pits from other locales etc, we as Drymarchon breeders/keepers should strive for the same thing, if not more so. Just my opinion.

*cheers*

Fredrick Albury
Aztec Reptiles

and increasing marketing. Always the lowest denominator ruins it for all no?

LA Pines here we go.

Hybridization just for the purpose of producing "different" offspring for commercial gain is an irresponsible act at best, destructive at worst. It is a problem that has taken on a moral aspect as well.

I'm not sure that anything at all can be done to prevent it legally. People hybridize many different animals and plants for many different purposes. I'm not sure exactly why it seems so much worse to hybridize snakes, but it does...to me anyway.

For some reason, Mankind seems never to be satisfied with what nature gives him and always wants to alter it to suit his tastes. We don't like the way the landscape looks, so we rip it up and change it. We don't like the way Broccoli tastes, so we hybridize it with Cauliflower. We get bored with "plain old" milksnakes, so we cross them with Corn Snakes and called the offspring "Jurassic" Milksnakes, or some such garbage as that. We tend to "play God" a lot. We do this to amuse and appease ourselves, the animal's welfare is never a consideration.

I have seen, from time to time, a person or two poke his head in here and the Pit Forum and start a thread on this subject. That thread always turns into a flame war. The anti-hybrid camp attacks, the pro-hybrid clan counter-attacks and the fight is on. I have never, ever seen the "pro-hybrid" camp present even one biologically or ethically sound reason for hybridizing. They can't present what they don't have. It always comes down to basically "It's my snakes and I have a right to do what I want with them."

To me, one of the only really valid reasons for having a Threatened or Endangered animal in captivity is to try to propagate that animal in it's pure form in captivity so that one day we may be able to help to preserve the wild populations, especially in cases where the animal is endangered in the wild largely by man's encroachment on it's habitat. When the captive gene pool is polluted by hybridizing, that becomes an impossibility. At that point, we have done nothing more than to contribute once more to the animal's demise.

Hybridizing is not legally wrong, but it is definitely morally wrong and biologically wrong. Unfortunately (in this case anyway) you can't legislate morality. The only thing we can do is to continue to voice our opinions and hope some of them finally listen, and protect our own bloodlines.

I am not a big indigo person. I love the way they look, but their cost will forever mean that people like me will get black milk snakes to clinch our big black snake desires. On thing that serves as a hindrance for the common collector is the whole permit thing. The need for a permit limits the market. If a breeder claims to have Texas/Eastern hybrids that have the great consistent shiny black coloration of an Eastern without the hassle of permits, he or she could sell the babies for a pretty good price. The market would be huge, because many would jump at the chance of owning a snake with Eastern traits (i.e. good temper, great looks, great size). So as a casual collector, I warn you guys that if you don't want hybrids be proactive. Because I feel the market will be there and once profit breeders discover this there will be no turning back.

that Texas Ranchers used to import Easterns
(way back when) and release them to bolster
the native populations.

I'm not positive but pretty sure it's documented
somewhere. Hence it is/was fairly common to find
Texas Indy's with Eastern influence in certain
areas.

Anyone else have anything on this subject?

Regards
Joe