Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys,
Do you have any idea of the subspecies of this baby rattler ?
I dont know anything about its origin, just know that it was CB in Europe.The colors look somewhat strange for a viridis viridis.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Geoff

It makes it a little more difficult when you're not sure where the animal or it's parent were collected. But if I had to guess.....I'd say nuntius. I base that not only on the pattern, but also coloration... from what I can make out.
Rich G should be able to nail it!
Cheers, Bill

Im gonna guess Lutosus, but I could be wrong. Tricky little snake. Let us know.

Marty F. had some babies with patterns similar to this. I guess time will be the best judge

Man, this is a toughie for several reasons. And even if the breeder told you what he thought it was he could quite possibly be wrong and Europeans usually go by very outdated range maps for the former viridis (now oreganus subs) in extreme northern Az. and southern Utah.We now know abyssus ranges well up into Utah and concolor comes down to the Az. border. And some of the Kane County abyssus are WEIRD LOOKING. I have seen a lot of concolor and abyssus on European sites listed as "nuntius".

The overall appearance is of abyssus or concolor. The head pattern looks concolor, the blotch type and count looks abyssus but could be extreme southern concolor. But baby abyssus and concolor are usually silvery gray as newborns and take at least a year to start showing the adult colors of tan, reddish or pinkish. Viridis on the other hand, nominate or nuntius are born with the adult colors. This snake already has a reddish brown color to it. any idea exactly how old it is?

here is a young female nuntius. notice the lower blotch count and overal different shape to the blotches.

this is actually one that Bill W. produced. This snake has a higher blotch count like mixcoatls snake and the blotch shape is closer also, but the color is still very silvery at about 8 months (is that right Bill?)

sorry for the poor quality with reflections and such, I just ran into the snakeroom and fired off a few that I though might help compare. This guy has a closer head pattern and a similar pattern although much more faded with age.

one of my females.

First, thank you guys for all the answers and the great comparison pics
I'd be pleased if It were a nuntius, abyssus or another ssp but its morphology doesnt match
the one of these ssp I guess, its quite flat like viridis viridis but the colors
are strange for that ssp.
I got the snake from a guy who was afraid of it, thats why I dont know anything of
its origin.I guess it is approx 8 months old but it is neonate size because the
former owner didnt feed him or very few.
Geoff

it REALLY looks like a concolor from the Az./Utah border region. Whever caught the originals probably was going by old range maps and went home thinking they had some nuntius. Even some of the literature has misidentified snakes. The "lutosus" in Venomous Reptiles of Az." by Lowe, Scwalbe and Johnson is actually an abyssus. The "nuntius" in Tanners little "Snakes of Utah" book is also an abyssus. Heck, last year I was at the Arizona-Sonora Desrt Museum and even they had an abyssus on display as a nuntius. Being a concolor would also explain its small size although at eight months I wouldn't expect any of the viridis or former viridis group to be much bigger than newborn anyway. Keep us posted on how it looks as it grows.

Check out the white stripe above the eye on that snake. 1 scale row thick. That's a characteristic of viridis not oreganus. I think it might be a weird looking viridis or an animal that was captive bred from parents of different localities. I've compared it to several photos of animals of the western clade (lutosus, abyssus and concolor) and all of them have white stripes of two scale rows thick.

Here's an example. Top left baby lutosus, top right concolor, bottom left his snake and bottom right abyssus.

I guess time will tell!

Just my 2 cents but living on Oregon where we have both oreganus and lutosus I have seen a lot of both and that looks quite a bit like the lutosus we find out in Eastern Oregon. But like you said time will tell.

Jeremy

It's amazing how tough it can be to id some young animals in the viridis group. LP's opinion was also that it was probably an eastern clade animal but was unsure as well. I think that sometimes photos are a tough way to judge. I cleaned up the original photo in APS and it looked a lot different.

That little guy came into the world the night of Aug 27th '03, so 8 mos is about dead on. Lookin good too, I might add!
It was mostly because of the reddish brown appearance of what looks to be a very young snake, that I guessed "nuntius." I haven't seen any young abyssus or lutosus with coloration like that. Another reason is that I have an adult, long term captive female "nuntius" from the Holbrook area that has an extremely similar pattern to the snake in question. It's gonna be a very difficult nut to crack, tho time may help. Where's Gordon!?!? lol
More than likely, I think it is probably nuntius or concolor....maybe lutosus. But hey, what do I know...I'm a communications tech!! lol
Cheers, Bill

That there were nine little ones in that litter, and the patterns differed quite a bit. Some were more of a "blocked" pattern like Rich's nuntius pic, while a few had patterns that very much resembled the animal in question. As I mentioned though, despite the patterns of a few of them being similar to the animal in question, none of them had similar coloration to that animal.
And just to make things a little more interesting/confusing, none of my adults look anything like yours Rich as far as coloration! Mine are much more tan and washed out.
Cheers, Bill

Just at my one den site I have seen snakes that vary from almost white to dark brown to greenish. Patterns are all different also. My animals aren't that great lookin compared to many. I caught the male as a baby back in 1992 so I didn't know what he was gonna look like.That pic under artificial light does no justice though. He isn't real faded but his color is actually lighter and he has a light pink wash on the sides when he is warmed up. I got a couple females as they came along. I have since seen snakes that are just totally awsome compared to mine but I believe I should stick with what I have till they die a natural death before I get better lookin ones. And probably no need to collect any more even then. I have one of your babies to outcross later and a buddy of mine has a screamer male so I think it can eventually be accomplished just with our CBs.