Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What about the states where these species are from, and ownership, breeding and sales is either prohbited or stricktly controled. Would the authorities in these states have the same control, or intrest in hybrids? If not, then whats to stop a person from obtaining some hybrids for breeding, keeping, selling, or whatever and moving to say Mississippi, or Florida etc.? What, if anything, could the conservation cops in those states do about it? If I may say, these "mutts" could possibly be benificial in that having them readily available on the open market might satisfy the needs of those who would otherwise go out and catch one from the wild. This might also force the issue of positive I.D. amoung breeders as to where exactly thier stock came from. All this could be resolved with the use of D.N.A.records. That may cause the powers that be to be more comfortable as well. As long as people don't start releasing these animals into the wild, and as long as all the breeders have given and recorded their stocks D.N.A. samples to a national registry so that every one knows who is who,...what diference does it make? Personaly, if I could buy, breed, and sell hybrid indigos wherever I wanted without government control, I'd be all for it. As long as they are healthy, pretty, and we still maintain the integrity of the two species in a seperate blood line, who cares? After all, the main thing is the conservation of the seperate species, both in the wild and in captivity. Case in point... The wolf exists both in the wild and in captivity. And in captivity it is available both as 100% wolf and degrees of dog hybrid. The wild population nor the species as a whole has not been harmed, nor probably will it ever be. I was an animal control officer in south Florida, and have dealt with this issue on several occasions. I personaly woudlnt want a wolf/dog hybrid, but you can see my point. So is it an abomination, or a sin to hybridize or cross breed? I think as long as the benifits out weigh the down falls,...not. I think a true example of an abomination would be 4 wheelers! It's nothing more than a cross between a go cart, and a dirt bike! If ever something should be banned this is it! I say as long as the hybrids don't harm the real deal who cares. Does anyone know what those states from the native range would do about it?

If you had a hybrid, it's quite possible it would appear as an Eastern per scale counts. This puts the keeper in a pretty sticky situation as a wild life official is probably going to err on the side of enforcement and confiscate an animal while the owner makes his case to the judge that it's legally ok because it's a hybrid. In the mean time, the confiscated animal is quite likely to die in the hands of the law enforcement officials. Then if a judge decides that the law "includes" hybrids, the keeper gets to pay his debt to society (fines, time, whatever), the animal is never returned, possibly destroyed, and the reptile community as a whole gets another bad mark.

Personally, I wouldn't feel much sympathy for the accused as I think hybridizing an Eastern Indigo with a Texas Indigo to skirt state laws is short-sighted pretty stupid.

If you are asking these questions simply out of a desire to discuss the ethics or morality of it... my take is that it's bad for the hobby in general and shouldn't be done, legal or not.

Doug T

>>What about the states where these species are from, and ownership, breeding and sales is either prohbited or stricktly controled. Would the authorities in these states have the same control, or intrest in hybrids? If not, then whats to stop a person from obtaining some hybrids for breeding, keeping, selling, or whatever and moving to say Mississippi, or Florida etc.? What, if anything, could the conservation cops in those states do about it? If I may say, these "mutts" could possibly be benificial in that having them readily available on the open market might satisfy the needs of those who would otherwise go out and catch one from the wild. This might also force the issue of positive I.D. amoung breeders as to where exactly thier stock came from. All this could be resolved with the use of D.N.A.records. That may cause the powers that be to be more comfortable as well. As long as people don't start releasing these animals into the wild, and as long as all the breeders have given and recorded their stocks D.N.A. samples to a national registry so that every one knows who is who,...what diference does it make? Personaly, if I could buy, breed, and sell hybrid indigos wherever I wanted without government control, I'd be all for it. As long as they are healthy, pretty, and we still maintain the integrity of the two species in a seperate blood line, who cares? After all, the main thing is the conservation of the seperate species, both in the wild and in captivity. Case in point... The wolf exists both in the wild and in captivity. And in captivity it is available both as 100% wolf and degrees of dog hybrid. The wild population nor the species as a whole has not been harmed, nor probably will it ever be. I was an animal control officer in south Florida, and have dealt with this issue on several occasions. I personaly woudlnt want a wolf/dog hybrid, but you can see my point. So is it an abomination, or a sin to hybridize or cross breed? I think as long as the benifits out weigh the down falls,...not. I think a true example of an abomination would be 4 wheelers! It's nothing more than a cross between a go cart, and a dirt bike! If ever something should be banned this is it! I say as long as the hybrids don't harm the real deal who cares. Does anyone know what those states from the native range would do about it?

I Truly believe that the cross breeding of the various types of DRYMARCHON is wrong. Wrong ethically, wrong financially and wrong from a conservation standpoint.There are enough people working with species that are a) MORE prolific and easily bred and b) Not ENDANGERED in the wild than to justify the crossing of DRYMARCHON with each other. Far from satisfying the pet trade, the production of hybrids from any snake that is rare or hard to breed only insures that future CAPTIVE Populations may not even be genetically viable to represent each type. In time, because of habitat encroachment, these captive populations may be all we have to even identify what these snakes truly look like. Lets not adulterate the little we have to work with.

SINCERELY,

Fredrick Albury
Aztec Reptiles

Hear, hear. Thank goodness there are purists left in this increasingly strange world.

O.k. here goes. I guess I stirred up something here so I'm gonna stir it up some More.
First of all let's get something straight. I would never go off half cocked and move down there, and get myself in trouble. I would never let anything bad happen to my indies or any other for that matter. I love them as my own children! I was'nt trying to start a fight. Nor did I expect to trade insults or be called stupid. I too have a college degree. I would never insult someone on this forum,. You never know who you might run into at a herp show, and what they might do if provoked. Nuf said?
It's not like I'm talking about creating somthing wich never existed in nature. Surely you would agree that the two were once one and the same. And that some degree of hybridization probably occured in Louisiana and Mississippi at some point in history. Truth be known,...man is probably the reason for the split. Or at least a contributing factor.
Now imagine, what if... We created a national herp society, along with a national indigo breeders D.N.A. catalog, with samples of all captive indigos. Including hybrids. And we work to change the laws, both federal, and state, to allow the possesion, breeding and sale of hybrids everywhere. Somebody in Florida could go to a herp show, and purchase a legal, registered hybdrid for half the price. Bubba's red neck black market indigos would go out of buisness. The integrity of the now three seperate species would be maintained, and nobody goes to jail, and nobody has any need or desire to catch any from the wild. By the way,... I left Florida in 96 and wild caught indigos were readily available on the black market, and I'm sure they still are.
Now if you agree with the total ban on possesion, perhaps you would like to give your collection to the authorities in Texas, and Florida. Then go move to China or North Korea. But if you are like me, and you think the law sucks, perhaps we can work together to change it! I think we should. And I see hybrids as a possible tool to do just that. And as a weapon against those who would steel the real thing from the wild.
Weather you are for it or against it, is irrelivant. The fact remains that some where, some time, some one has or will breed Texans with Easterns. It will happen if it has not happened already. The only question is,... how will we deal with it. Will we police our own, and make some positive changes to the way things are? Or will we get all upset, fight amungst our selves and let the whole thing get out of control? In short,...like it or not,...HYBRIDS ARE COMMING. Yes there are both positive and negative aspectcs, So whatcha gonna do?
Now it's time to click the mouse and see what happens, Hail Mary! Tony.

Oh, yeah...you opened up the worms now.

If you want to go to the extend of keeping DNA records, it shoudl be done to make sure that the couperi in capivity are genetically diversified and that we are not creating inbred animals that will tend to be sickly or have weak immune systems, etc.

We have a unique responsibility working with indigos. A responsibility to keep the gentics CLEAN and diversified. Here's why I think so:

1-There are still some regions of suitible habitat where indigos have recently been extripated. There is talk of one day re-establising populations when we have enough knowledge of the species. Where will these animals come from? One suggestion has been captive born - raised snakes. I have already been personally contacted by a very well known herpetologist and author who wants to start just such a program using cpative raised snakes. It may or may not actually happen, but the fact remains that heathly captives may be needed.

2- We can learn a lot about wild snakes by study of captives. Captives that are COUPERI, not MUTTS! I'm currently working on a study for a university of TX herpetologist testing the affects of pheremone attractants and their effects on indigos. One day this may lead to a new and much more effective way to survey for wild indigos, which is one of the biggest challenges in their conservation.

Mutts are pets as best. At worst they can contaminate the genetics of an awsome species that is on the decline and aid in this very decline. They would have no natural history and would be completely man made.

Just because Drymarchon likely spread from Texas to Florida aling the gulf at one time does not mean we should be so biologically irresponsible as to cross them.

Think of this: A snake in Texas has developed thousands of years through evolution to survive in that micro-habitat. It's highly specialized.

Same goes for the Florida snakes. The ecosystems are entirely different. The snakes that bridged the gap in Louisiana are GONE. Gone for as long as anyone has on record. We can't (and shouldn't) bring them back. They were not erraticated by man. They had their chance and nature selected them for extinction. And something took their place no doubt.

We can't be so arrogant as to think we can just toss them together and make a mutt that's "basically the same thing"
There's a lot more going on in these animals than what we see on the outside. They are hardwired with thousands of years of instinct.

I hope like hell the MUTTS ARE NOT COMING. And will do what I can to prevent it.

Drini,
I want you to know that your opinion is the main one that I hoped to read. And I am glad to hear what you have to say. Obviously I disagree,... but thats O.K. This is America, and that's how it works here. But that does not mean that I disagree entirely. I also want you to know that I admire and respect the work you are doing to save this species in the wild. Furthermore, I want all of you to know that I would never do anything to jeopardize that work! And I have no plans and no desire to create the "muts" we are all so concerned about. I am meerly expressing my thoughts and opinions amongst a group of people who I hope will some day accept me as a collegue. So don't fret too much...you have no reason to worry about me.
All I am saying is that somebody is likely to do it some day. We can not stop that from happening. We should decide now what to do when it does. We can keep this gene pool sperated from ours. We can start a D.N.A. registry. We can work to change laws that suck. We can put a dent in the theft of wild specimens. We might be able to salvage enough wild land to maintain a viable, truly wild population, and I pray that we can with all my heart! But I honestly doubt it. Too much land is disapearing to fast. Too many people are moving to a warmer climate. Hell,... I'm thinking about it myself. I just can't take the cold anymore,...and I served in the Infantry in Alaska!
The thought of mutts being produced of this magnificant animal, is repulsive to me as well. I know that the idea has obvious downfalls. And I recognize each of them. But I also recognize the possibilities. And I recognize that a change is in the air. It was only a matter of time before some yahoo did it.
As for me,...I say again,...I have no desire and no plans to create the muts we are all so concerned about. Playing God is just not my thing. But get ready to deal with it because I am sure it will happen. How will we deal with it?
Tony.

II cents,

I raise both couprei and melanarus and I believe Fred A. and I see the same picture. The ultimate glory of someone crossing Drymarchon species is GREED. What can I produce to make a buck?

What can we do to expose the CAD that attempts to cross Drymarchon? Nothing legally!
What can we do to the individual that tries to sell one? Nothing legally!

But if the interested buyer does his or her home work and inquires about the blood line, checks it authenticity and verifies it, they will probably fine out that it will come back to someone on this form in one way or another. Or someone on here knows them.

What if he or she tries to sell this cross as Couprei over state lines?
To receive a permit the breeder has to (in writing) send in his breeding information (falsifying Federal documents). Dealing with the Feds now! Go to jail, fines and court costs, Oh my! But you have to prove it is a cross. I doubt Fish and game have a point of reference other than scale counts. No DNA library.

And lastly IMO if someone did settle for a cross because of money, availability, got to have one. Well that person has no respect for the Dry species and probably never would have accepted a cross if not for there own GREED!

Dann…