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I heard on the indigo forum that someone has done just that. If you have,...e-mail thesnakeman@centurytel.net I'd like to talk to you. Thanks,
Tony.

You have me worried...you're hanging out with the wrong crowd over here.
They'll fill your head with all kinds of "hybridizing is good"
nonsense.

Lets keep Drymarchon clean...

One very FAT Eastern Indigo. lol Tony, you are giving me MORE gray hairs. PURE gray, to be exact, but grey nevertheless..

See you back you know where...

Fred Albury

I am trying very hard to understand why you guys have yet to utter a single word about the Indigo-Cribo crosses produced by one of your own friends from the Indigo forum in light of the outspoken opinions you hold so true on these forums. It doesn't make sense. It makes me wonder if I'll ever get "pure" snakes from anybody. You bash crosses here, yet let it slide over there. I don't know who to trust anymore. At least the people here represent their crosses honestly.

Greyhound,

It seems that this subject has allready been covered by your many numerous posts to Dean Allesandri below.

You are PURPORTEDLY looking for a pair of PURe Texas Indigo snakes. Very good. And you are buying them with the intention of breeding them. Even better.

To answer your question about my reaction to people on the INDIGO forum in regard to hybidization posts I will tell you the following facts:

A) The people that inhabit that forum, almost to a person, have went through painstaking efforts NOT to use the diffrent types of DRYMARCHON(Indigos) for projects that involve hybridization or cross breeding of the diffrent types. One of the things that gives certain Indigo types their value is that they are rare in the wild and/or are inherently hard to captive produce. It behoves the keeprs of thee snakes NOT to cross them, and the entire Drymarchon keeping community as a whole takes a very view of those that even mention that they would ATTEMPT to do so.
I for one would definetly voice my displeasure on these forums if I found that someone stated THEMSELVES that they had successfully attempted to do so. As would, I believe, Doug, Dean, Carl and a host of other established Indigo breeders and even novice keepers who wanted to keep the value of their snakes up.

B) Having someone come on that forum and SAY that they knew someone that did this(Hybridizing) is mere heresay, and slanderous and has no substantiation in fact. It is merely gossip, no more no less. This does not merit the same response as a factual post by the person that actually produced them.

C)You have allready argued this pontbelow with Dean..ad nauseum. If your goal is to get pure Texas Indigos, I applaud you and wish you the best luck on your endeavour, it certainly is a worthwhile one. I think the best way to go about it is to contact as many people as you can that breed Texas Indigos and select from that group. Frankly, casting fault at those people that do breed them instead of just bypassiong whatever person that you dont want to buy from and choosing someone else, is not a very productive way of getting what you want. If indeed you even really want that. Time will tell. Best of luck with your Drymarchon, hope you have good luck in producing some pure Texas. They are wonderfull snakes

*Cheers*

Fred Albury

(Greyhound, It seems that this subject has allready been covered by your many numerous posts to Dean Allesandri below. You are PURPORTEDLY looking for a pair of PURe Texas Indigo snakes. Very good. And you are buying them with the intention of breeding them. Even better.)

I didn't say that. You did.

(To answer your question about my reaction to people on the INDIGO forum in regard to hybidization posts I will tell you the following facts:

A) The people that inhabit that forum, almost to a person, have went through painstaking efforts NOT to use the diffrent types of DRYMARCHON(Indigos) for projects that involve hybridization or cross breeding of the diffrent types.)

Almost to a person? Please explain to me what that means. "Almost" would imply that maybe you know something Dean doesn't.

(One of the things that gives certain Indigo types their value is that they are rare in the wild and/or are inherently hard to captive produce. It behoves the keeprs of thee snakes NOT to cross them, and the entire Drymarchon keeping community as a whole takes a very view of those that even mention that they would ATTEMPT to do so.)

What does this have to do with the fact that one person crossed Drymarchon subspecies? Have you added something to prove this hasn't been done? No. Are you adding anything to this discussion? No. You are simply trying to further aggrivate this thread. In light of the fact that you are one of the people who are discussed at length and who I was also warned about, I take anything and everything you say with a "grain of salt". The boi thread on you speaks for itself Fred. I honestly don't want to go into that here. No need.

(I for one would definetly voice my displeasure on these forums if I found that someone stated THEMSELVES that they had successfully attempted to do so. As would, I believe, Doug, Dean, Carl and a host of other established Indigo breeders and even novice keepers who wanted to keep the value of their snakes up.)

What's your point?

((B) Having someone come on that forum and SAY that they knew someone that did this(Hybridizing) is mere heresay, and slanderous and has no substantiation in fact. It is merely gossip, no more no less. This does not merit the same response as a factual post by the person that actually produced them.

C)You have allready argued this pontbelow with Dean..ad nauseum.)

Ad nauseum is right Fred. Why are you posting on this thread? What have you added to this subject? Nothing as far as I can see.

(If your goal is to get pure Texas Indigos, I applaud you and wish you the best luck on your endeavour, it certainly is a worthwhile one. I think the best way to go about it is to contact as many people as you can that breed Texas Indigos and select from that group. Frankly, casting fault at those people that do breed them instead of just bypassiong whatever person that you dont want to buy from and choosing someone else, is not a very productive way of getting what you want.)

So what you are sayoing is that I should blindly buy Texans from just about anyone without inquiring about the lineage. From what I have been able to gather so far, there are crosses out there being pawned off as pure Texans and possibly producing a new generation of crosses THIS YEAR! I and others who want real Texans have a right to know we are getting pure ones. Therefore, I'd say that is a "very productive way of getting what" I DON'T want (crosses). What do you not understand about that Fred?

(If indeed you even really want that. Time will tell. Best of luck with your Drymarchon, hope you have good luck in producing some pure Texas. They are wonderfull snakes)

Thank you. Maybe I'll produce little ones, maybe I won't. I won't be buying the crosses that are floating around, that's for sure. Maybe you will. How would you know?

You guys can keep the fire burning all you want. I think this has gone on long enough. Agree? Disagree? Whatever.

Greyhound,

I totally agree. I leave you to your own DEVICES. Cant misquote that one can we?

Lol

fred

Now, just exactly how do you tell that you have grey hair?

I saw your picture in your Reptile Hobbiest magazine article.
You have the same amount of hair that I do...but I least I can see the grey in my goat.

Are your eyebrows going grey ??

LOL

Good point Dean, no hair on head or on face makes it hard to figure. But you havent yet factored in (Ugh) ear hair!! Yup , grey as a slush puddle of melted snow on the side of an upstate New York roadway. Of course, their are OTHER grey hairs(ugh...ugh), but dont want to send any young listeners into premature comas! lol

Take care Dean,

*Fred Albury*

(You have me worried...you're hanging out with the wrong crowd over here.
They'll fill your head with all kinds of "hybridizing is good"
nonsense.
Lets keep Drymarchon clean...)

No offense fellas, but from the information I've gotten via private e-mails (boapit, anaconda etal), and the boi, that some of the problem is in your own back yard. Kind of a double standard, yes? I thoroughly and painfully read a whole(very long) thread about a few regulars in the "indigo" forum and didn't see either of your (Dean, Fred) input on the matter. I wanted to buy a pair of Texans this year but was dissuaded, thanks to that thread. Shouldn't you guys go after people who obviously have done what you are trying to persuade others not to do. It seems to me that maybe you guys are hanging out with the wrong crowd.

The only way we know for sure, unfortunatly, that people create hybrids is when they tell us they do. So, in that repect, I'm very glad the people here do just that.

Although there have been accusations made, No one (that I know of at least) from the indigo forum has ever admitted creating hybrids, and they all pretty much agree not to do so.

Please remember that the same people that made the accusations were kicked off of these forums for trouble making...what they say must always be taken with a grain of salt, because they obviously enjoy riling things up.

I can guarantee you that Fred and I both would be ALL OVER anyone we knew created Drymarchon hybrids, but the fact remains, no one has ever stood up and said they did it.

And we don't slam people on a public forum over gossip and rumors.

(The only way we know for sure, unfortunatly, that people create hybrids is when they tell us they do. So, in that repect, I'm very glad the people here do just that.

Although there have been accusations made, No one (that I know of at least) from the indigo forum has ever admitted creating hybrids, and they all pretty much agree not to do so.

Please remember that the same people that made the accusations were kicked off of these forums for trouble making...what they say must always be taken with a grain of salt, because they obviously enjoy riling things up.

I can guarantee you that Fred and I both would be ALL OVER anyone we knew created Drymarchon hybrids, but the fact remains, no one has ever stood up and said they did it.

And we don't slam people on a public forum over gossip and rumors.)

Dean,
First of all, I'm not sure why you privately e-mailed me on this matter and I have sent your e-mail to one of the fellas who I have been conversing with on this matter in the hopes I might get two sides of the story. I'm not concerned with their alleged conduct on KS due to the respect they have shown me thus far. I must say that I am no flunky and I like to think I have good common sense. From what I have seen so far, I have no doubt in my mind that what these guys are saying is true.

(Although there have been accusations made, No one (that I know of at least) from the indigo forum has ever admitted creating hybrids, and they all pretty much agree not to do so.)

Let's be realistic Dean. Although I may be a stranger to posting on KS, I am no stranger to observing here. No one from Indigo would ever admit to crossing these beautiful snakes with another subspecies. I feel as though you seem to think you're collaborating with an idiot. That, my good fellow, I am not! Whether I am right or wrong, it is just silly to think that I would give attention to such a statement.

(Please remember that the same people that made the accusations were kicked off of these forums for trouble making...what they say must always be taken with a grain of salt, because they obviously enjoy riling things up.)

I have heard their side of the story. While they admit to stirring things up on KS (which I do not condone altogether), I'm not so sure I would discount their credibility concerning the crosses. When concern for buying pure Texans is concerned, I didn't take their views with a grain of salt and neither should anyone who wants pure snakes. Maybe you're right about them "riling things up". That is wrong. But I think that is the lesser of evils in this case. From what I've seen on the boi, these guys are 2and0 concerning two of your friends. To me, that gives them credibility.

(I can guarantee you that Fred and I both would be ALL OVER anyone we knew created Drymarchon hybrids, but the fact remains, no one has ever stood up and said they did it.)

I find it disturbing that the fact that no one "has ever stood up and said they did it" is satisfactory in your mind that the person in question did not create such crosses.

(And we don't slam people on a public forum over gossip and rumors.)

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or the alleged troublemakers you are speaking of. I am slamming no one. I do however voice my concern with good reason. I want to obtain Texas Indigos. I don't want crosses. From what I have read, no one seems to want to reveal the location of the suspect offspring, and no one has come forward to refute the allegations of the accusers. This is disturbing and SHOULD BE a similar concern to everyone who respects these snakes, you included. Boapitt and Anaconda have supplied alot of information and nary a sole has contradicted them, including you guys. I remain skepticle (and unfortunately Indigo-less) until otherwise refuted. But I will try to remain unbiassed as well. Please accept my apologies in advance if I am being offensive. That's not my objective.

Grey

The reason I emailed you privately is that I have respect for matters that I feel are private. If you choose to forward my messages, that's your decision. I won't email anything I don't stand behind, I just prefer to keep the forums educational.

I am very careful not to say ANYTHING on a public website that could damage anyone's reputation. Especially if there is no proof.

And as for thinking you are an idiot, I have no reason to think you are.

But I am telling you this honestly...I personally don't beleive that the hybrids were created.

So...maybe now you think I'm the idiot.
That's ok.

But, I don't apologize for needing proof in order to feel comfortable throwing around accusations.

If someone says they did something that I disagree with, I will tell them so. But if not, it's a game of one person's word vs. anothers. Homie don't play dat. It's a game no one wins and all it does make everyone look like children.

By the way...if my advice is worth anything to you, get on Virgil Willis' waiting list for Texans. I think everyone else is sold out, and he just got a BUNCH of eggs. I have a female from the same parents, and she's killer. (and certainly pure erebennnus)

Dean

PS: I'm not discussing this matter further on the forum, I'll be happy to email you, or you can call me on the phone if you like.
I just don't feel it belongs here.

(The reason I emailed you privately is that I have respect for matters that I feel are private. If you choose to forward my messages, that's your decision. I won't email anything I don't stand behind, I just prefer to keep the forums educational.)

Sorry Dean. I did not realize that this was a private matter and feel that this is an important topic to discuss openly on the forum. May I remind you that you guys initiated the "con-hybrid" discussion? Not I. These forums are as much a vehicle for some regarding business as it is for educational purposes. I feel that "educating" people regarding misrepresentation of snakes they they may possibly come in contact with is extremely important...and educational.

(I am very careful not to say ANYTHING on a public website that could damage anyone's reputation. Especially if there is no proof.)

As am I. But the circumstantial evidence seems overwhelming. Are the people who want to buy offspring from the snakes in question less important than the reputation of someone who, although has not YET been proven wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt, probably did cross those snakes. After all, the accusers have not been "proven" wrong. Yet you unconditionally write off their accusations as if there is no doubt in your mind that they (the accusers) are wrong. How can this be?

(And as for thinking you are an idiot, I have no reason to think you are.)

Thank you.

(But I am telling you this honestly...I personally don't beleive that the hybrids were created. So...maybe now you think I'm the idiot.
That's ok.)

Not at all Dean. I do however think you are somewhat biassed. Nothing I haven't been accused of in the past when defending a friend, or two.

(But, I don't apologize for needing proof in order to feel comfortable throwing around accusations.)

I just think that a statement like that should go both ways. In this case, it appears that the accusers have a case while the accused has none, thus the "red flag" with regard to the accused.

(If someone says they did something that I disagree with, I will tell them so. But if not, it's a game of one person's word vs. anothers. Homie don't play dat. It's a game no one wins and all it does make everyone look like children.)

Maybe, but some people may be spared the unfortunate act of inadvertantly polluting their collection with a possibly misrepresented cross. To me, that is the lesser of evils, as it should be with you.

(By the way...if my advice is worth anything to you, get on Virgil Willis' waiting list for Texans. I think everyone else is sold out, and he just got a BUNCH of eggs. I have a female from the same parents, and she's killer. (and certainly pure erebennnus)

I questioned him about his stock (lineage) on the Indigo forum and he ignored my post. There goes that red flag again. Thanks anyway.

PS: I'm not discussing this matter further on the forum, I'll be happy to email you, or you can call me on the phone if you like.
I just don't feel it belongs here.

No offense Dean, but I prefer to keep this relationship on KS in light of your support for the accused until otherwise proven fictitious. I'm sure you understand. At first I viewed the accused as innocent until proven guilty. Now I am left with no choice but to view him as guilty until proven innocent. The fact that you are one of many who unconditionally view him as innocent in light of the evidence provided scares me. Your reputation on Indigo holds alot of weight. Enough said and thank you for not flaming me.

Grey

I am not endorsing the claims made by the accusers, but I must use common sense in this matter. We'll see what happens.

I know "snakeman" who posted above...I'm just razzing him in fun on that post not trying to flame him, and I think he knows that.

just fyi.

Dean

np

Yes, thanks Dean. Coincidence? I responded to that post two hours before you posted this. Surely you saw my response to him. So exactly what was your point in posting this here when you knew I already saw his response? No need to answer Dean. I know you like to think you "one-upped" me. Was this somehow necessary? Since you decided to keep our dicussion going, I was wondering if you had any proof of the "trouble" that the accusers we spoke of earlier were causing here on KS. If not, and they decide not to admit they were trolling, does that mean they didn't do it? They admit to "stirring" things up. That doesn't mean they were causing trouble. According to you, that's the way it works. If they don't admit to doing anything, then they are not guilty. O.J. didn't admit to doing anything either. Maybe it's best we just drop the whole thing. I just thought that your presence on this forum was kind of a double standard. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Take care

Grey

Grey.

went over the the indigo forum and saw that post from Virgil and came right back and made that post. I didn't pay any attention to replies to it.

I was trying to help you.

You are a little too paranoid my friend.

Sorry. I seem to have gotten caught up in the you-know-what, lol. I have communicated privately with him and was pleased with the outcome. I will admit I'm a bit paranoid though, with good reason. Enough said.