Reptile & Amphibian Forums

just corious if they can be tamed like other snakes.

thanks

If it isn't, I recommend A LOT of reading and discussion with experienced keepers before you even entertain the thought of getting anything more venomous than a Western hognose...

AP

Thought I'd throw in a bit of fireworks.
Fact: No venomous snake knows it's venomous...they don't have the mental capacity!!
All snakes, venmomous or otherwise only bite for food or defence (fear). How bitey they are has nothing to do with how venomous they are.
The ONLY material difference between the venomous and non-venomous snakes is the consequences (to us) of a bite (as a generalisation).
Hence in answer to the opening post, Cobras can be tamed in the same way as say a corn snake ... as I said, the only difference is the consequences of a bite ... yes, people are bitten by Corn snakes all the time ... they just don't die from them.
Happy herping...

that a venomous snake doesn't know it's venomous...the fact that hots can regulate the amount of venom (if any) they inject during a bite shows a conscious awareness of the amount of venom they possess and it's importance in securing food and protecting themselves. I would not bet my life on taming a cobra. It's not a cat, dog, or even a cow, it cannot be domesticated. It will never have any emotional attachment to you (though you might to it), and will have no qualms about putting your ass in a pine box. So if you're out to tame a cobra, start making out invitations to your funeral as well...

AP

I always say that the difference between handling a hot and a nonhot is like walking over a board. With the nonhot, the board is just up on some concrete blocks and if you fall it's no big deal. With the hot it's like the board is over the grand canyon. It's not that much harder to walk across, but the conse quences are much worse if you fall!
Ok, I don't really say that but I would if anyone asked.
-----
Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

to "Does anyone here have a docile cobra"...yes, there are docile cobras, that don't really hood and are pretty easy to work with, but no keeper with a shred of intellegence would mistake this for being "tame". When you start thinking like that, you start taking risks. All it takes is a split second to startle the snake or it mistakes a smell on you for food or whatever, and you're gonna be wishing you treated that snake like it was the meanest damn thing on this planet.

AP

The above comments do have a ring of truth and I cannot totally disprove all, but can partially refute some tenets.
However, the idea that snakes knowingly and deliberately control release of venom isn't so.
Venom release appears to be mechanical and independent of what goes through a snmake's brain (most of the time).
Perhaps the best examples of this are as follows:
When milking snakes for venom. Teasing of given muscles will effect an involuntary expulsion of venom.The snake has little if any control over this.
Another exmaple is when operating on a snake's head and/or restraining the upper jaw down on wood with a rubber band. As the rubber band is pressed down on the sheath over the fang (the band going through the fang), an involuntary expulsion of venom will occur. The snake has NO control over this.
Put another way, they run on instinct in terms of bites and injecting venom.
That they don't know they are venomous is also evident in that venomoid ones (the ones minus their venom glands) act the same way as their peers.
In other words they don't even remember having their venom glands taken out or the consequences of the operation.
Snakes do not speak english or have intelligence of reason like humans and hence have no concept of venom, at least as we do.
ALL THE BEST

Ray,

You have some interesting points. I would like to challenge a few of the things you said with alternative explanations.

When describing physical force on the venom gland during milking, your explanation sounds like you are describing a reflex. Just because there is a reflex when you hit the venom gland just right, it doesn't mean they couldn't have mental control over it too. Perhaps neurological stimulation to that area could trigger venom release. Mentally, I'm comparing it to synaptic transmitter released by a surge of calcium. If I were to go with the idea of neurological release, this is probably the model I would adhere to.

On a same note, perhaps they trigger their own reflex to inject venom. I know that Naja kaouthia can get so worked up that they will extrude venom from their fangs. This could be a musculature effect taking place.

Your other point regarding an anesthetized snake was interesting too. I have thought of some behavioral homologues with humans. People often lose control over mentally regulated behaviors when they become intoxicated with alcohol. If severe enough, some may urinate involuntarily. Likewise, we will lose the ability to inhibit some reflexes while intoxicated. For example, the babinski reflex is seen in drunk individuals. Now, I will admit that the inhibition of reflexes involves cortical function. This is obviously something lacking to some degree in reptiles. I just thought it was an interesting homologue.

At this point, I'd like to assume that snakes probably don't have the ability to control how much venom they can produce. I havn't seen enough data one way or another to convince me either way. I've designed some studies to analyze this theoretical model, but I see no source of funding. The labs I work in are not IACUC approved to accept reptiles, living or simply tissue. Maybe when I have my own lab...

I'm very interested in hearing a response from you. This is an area that interests me a lot.

Later,
Dave

Ray,

I never said the snake thinks in english and says "Hmm, i have so much venom, i'll inject 100 mg and save the other 100 for the mouse i hope to catch tonight"...I agree that snakes have no reasoning capabilities, at least in comparison to humans. But they do seem aware of their capabilities. In my experience, hots are much more likely to bite. Not that i've been bitten. I've only been struck at by a few nonvenomous, but venomous always seem prepared to strike. Also, when milking a snake and massaging it's venom glands, you are forcing the snake to inject venom, and this is of course involuntary. But the initial bite and injection when it bites the flask is volunatary in my opinion. A venomoid obviously won't remember or even understand it's operation (all it knows is it's being tortured by giant two-legged monsters), so it's reasonable to assume that it would still try to envenomate. It still thinks it has venomous capabilities. You have some good points, but i think we'll have to agree to disagree.

AP

Re the preceding.
The claim that venomous are more likely to bite (humans I assume) than non-venomous may be true across all thousand or more venomous versus a similar number of venomous species if averaged out.
I have no data one way or other for this mass of species.
However in terms of individual taxa I do have good information.
Some venomous taxa such as Tropidechis will bite at humans at the drop of a hat. Ditto for things like Pseudonaja textilis.
But taxa like Pseudechis porphyriacus, while also highly venomous are known to be very placid and rarely bite humans unless really provoked.
As a contrary position, non-venomous species like Katrinus fuscus (Water Python) are usually snappy and try to bite humans all the time.
Exceptions to your theory (see previous post) are very common, hence my generic assertion earlier re bitey nature of venomous vs non-venomous and a generic lumping of all as "similar" (while ignoring obvious species idiocyncracises).
If you disagree with me on the above, that's fine.
You are allowed that right and I respect you for it.
ALL THE BEST

yes, I think you have better elaborated my (perhaps) to generalist post preceding it.
Thanks

I respect your opinion as well Ray, of course. Neither of us have any conclusive scientific data to back our theories and are (at least in my case) inspired by personal observations and ideas I've formulated from other sources. By no means are my ideas proven. You make some great points, and it's great to see the elapidae forum getting a little more use!

AP

I have no 'hot' snakes, I may int he future but I am not ready. However they intrest me a great deal and I felt very compelled to make a comment here...

If snakes who have venom, have no idea they have venom, what must a spitting cobra think when it is spitting?

Which leads me to clarify my point to be, that snakes do not have a concept of venom like we humans do.
They are hardwired to run mainly on instinct and many of their behaviours they have they do but without apparant knowledge as to why or even how.
Hence for example venomoid snakes still bite and "inject" or at least try to.
I hope that makes sense.

ALL THE BEST

The poster wanted to know if a cobra could be "tamed" like other snakes. First off, I wouldn't use the word tame as it tends to describe something that is always going to be completely harmless and placid. I would use docile as, at least to me, that implies the current state of an animal, and not it's determined behavior. A snake is a wild animal first and formost and should never be completely trusted. Harmless snakes like most colubrids and some of the smaller to medium boids and are no real threat. But giving complete trust to any venomous snake or large boid can spell disaster. Sure, there are plenty of docile deadly snakes such as cobras, rattlesnakes, and everything else, every species has an individual that is out of the norm. These animals are great because they are much easier to work with than a psychotic animal of the same species. But any wild animal can turn on you without warning. It only takes a split second for a placid cobra that never even hooded to kiss you on the hand, or face, or whatever. And it's not gonna give a rat's ass that your lying on the ground suffocating because it's venom paralyzed your nervous system. Hell, my CAT isn't even tame, that little sh** scratches the crap out of me all the time, and if he were venomous, I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot grab pole. You can bet I'm not gonna count on a deadly snake to be tame either.

AP

I have read an account of a woman who died many years back who did in fact tame venomous snakes to the point where they could actually ba freely handles. The animals that she worked with included rattlesnakes and cobras. (info was from The Encycopedia of Reptiles and Amphibians published around 20 years ago --- I think)

She died from a bite from one of her cobras... enough said.

I have lots of other tame elapids like Browns, Tigers, Blacks and Copperheads as being held in the photo below.

Image