Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can you use collard greens as a staple?

Calcium-binding oxalates are too high to be used as a regular staple. I suggest dandelion, mustard greens, and endive.
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1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

Where are you getting this information? I may be wrong, or information may have changed, but everything I have read (most recently on the Green Iguana Society website and Melissa Kaplan's website) lists collards, mustard, turnip and dandelion greens as "good" greens that can be fed heavily and as a staple; greens high in oxalates were listed as spinach, chard, beet and kale, which are recommended to be fed sparingly...I feed lots of collards to my iguana and my uros, and if they are indeed high in oxalates I'd like to know...Thanks...

SR

Last I heard, spinach and swiss chard are a definite no-no. You might want to check out Veronicag's website which gives numerical values (oxalates and such) for each green. Collard greens (and Kale) belong to the cabbage family and thus have higher oxalates in them than dandelion or mustard greens. Endive is also recommended as is radiccio (another member of the endive family). You might want to check several sites to get feeding information instead of going by one site alone. During my searches for info on uros, I stumbled across a site that said that romaine lettuce, iceburg lettuce, and spinach were excellent staple diets for uros. We all know now that this is certainly not true. Things change, so does the information about uro husbandry and diet as we learn more about these animals. This is just my opinion of course but I do stand by what I say.

Hope this helps
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1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

If I am not mistaken, mustard greens actually have a higher percentage of oxalic acid than collard greens. Collard greens do contain a measurable amount but are looked at more as a goitrogenic food (brassica family) than an oxalate. The calcium phos ratio is great in both of these greens so many will overlook the oxalate/goitrogenic drawbacks. I personally do not use either as a staple but will use both (collards more often) once in a while as additions to my staples. The staples I use 'most' often are curly endive, escarole, and dandelion leaves.

If you simply do some searching on the internet using keywords such as collard greens oxalates- you will probably find a dozen or more hits. When I originally did my research on this (long time ago), I found conflicting information all over the place. If you put a few weeks into searching websites, take detailed notes, and put weight on the ‘type’ of sites you are taking your information from, you should be able to arrive at your own conclusions rather than just taking someone else’s word for something.

Thanks Debb--

I have done a fair amount of research, mostly on the Uromastyx Home Page and through the various websites...Doug Dix, Eric and Suzy Sorin and Jason Creager all have collards listed in their top five recommended greens; Audrey Vanderlinden is the only one that recommends feeding them only "occasionally"...Various Uromastyx books and articles also have collards on their "recommended" list...I'm guessing this information is now outdated, which is good to know....Thanks again...

SR

Shelley,

The information is not necessarily outdated. Collard greens have a terrific Ca ratio, are high in vitamins and are not as high in glucosinolates as some other members of the brassica family so some people feel the benefits outweight the small drawback.

I do not believe that Doug uses collard greens as a staple and I am not even certain that he feeds mustard greens but I could be wrong.

There are very few 'perfect' foods so we are forced to work with what we have. Diet choices are one of those controversial subjects and everyone seems to have their own opinions on what should be fed and what should not be fed. This is the major reason I suggest committing some time to researching individual food items. Although it will be confusing (chem degree would be handy) and does take time, it is time well spent.

Debb:

I agree...following your advice I came up with a terrific website, actually set up for turtles and tortoises, that does give a fairly extensive chart of greens and their nutritional values..If anyone else here is interested, it's http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.html...

While I won't stop feeding collards and mustard, I definitely will tweak the diet I'm currently feeding and start adding some different stuff...

SR

It is so confusing to read so many conflicting opinions. I think feeding your animals is similar to feeding yourself. Too much of any one type of food will be detrimental in the long term. Balance your uros diet by using different types of dark, leafy greens along with a nice selection of other greens. I use the spring mix as a base and add a differnt type or two of the dark greens every time I mix the food. I also use the frozen mixed veggies, squash, sweet potatoe and a little bit of fruit once in awhile. I liberally dust the mix with the Sandfire uromastyx dust and sprinkle a little bee pollen on top on occasion. Flowers are great when I can get them, but in Wisconsin that's only for a few months. Collards are fine, just not as the base of their diet, but an addition to it. Good luck.

Pam

I don't really know much about mustard greens because I've never found any. I've got lots of dandelion here, both store-bought and wild. Ra really seems to prefer it this time of year, in the autumn and winter months, he snubs it.
Does anyone have a pic of the package that the Spring Mix comes in? I'd like to get some but I want to make sure I'm getting the right kind. Ra doesn't like anything that tastes like cabbage (ie. Bok Choy, collard greens, kale), boy is he spoiled or what?
I sure hope I can find some Spring Mix, it would help add a lot more variety.
Thanks for the updated info Debb.
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1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

The local grocery stores in my area carry spring mix in bulk in the vegetable/produce section.

Although 'I' enjoy spring mix, I have not fed it to my uromastyx as I have not yet taken the time to investigate the nutritional breakdown of the individual items found in the mix.

I do know that arugula is sometimes found in the spring mix and although a little higher in sodium, fat, and protein than some of the other greens I feed- has a great Ca ratio and nice balance of vitamins and minerals.

Good luck

I think colards are great for uros and should be apart of their daily green mixture.... I have heard from many different sources that agree with me.

Here is a link showing the Ca to P ratios of a ton of different greens....http://www.baskingspot.com/iguanas/igbook/table2.html

The higher the Ca to P the better...the higher the P the worst off it is.

Here is a link with more info on a variety of greens....http://www.baskingspot.com/iguanas/igbook/table1.html

Hope this helps...
~Chris~

Onions have a terrific Ca ratio but it certainly does not mean that they are a good food source for uromastyx.

Many factors other than just the Ca ratio should be taken into consideration when determining whether a food source should be fed and whether it should or should not be used as a staple.

If you want to feed collard greens just because people agree with you that it is a good food source, then by all means -feed collard greens. I however, will continue to base my decision on whether to use specific items and how frequently I use them on facts and data that I see first hand.

hey magnum,go to deer fern farms site and read about collard greens there.not a good staple at all.
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later,mike

First of all, I had to fix that heading...I'm an English major and I couldn't stand it...sorry..

Anyhow, the care sheet at Deer Fern Farms is part of what added to my confusion; unless there's another part to it I didn't see, Doug lists collards as a perfectly acceptable green and has nothing negative to say about them...He feeds mainly alfalfa and birds foot trefoil, but includes dandelions, collards and some other greens as totally fine main food items...Again, I'm sure the key here is variety; it sounds like no green should be a "staple" and that as wide a variety as possible should be fed...I fed escarole for the first time last night and my guys loved it! I'll be adding dandelions as soon as it warms up a little more here, and I'm continuing to feed collards along with the new stuff..

SR

Here is a direct quote from Doug's website:

"Do NOT feed spinach, beet greens, Swiss chard, or cabbage, and limit broccoli, kale and collard greens. These either bind important nutrients or tend to induce metabolic problems over time."

Okay, but like where on the website are you seeing this? When I look under "Diet" on their care sheet I see: "Our primary diet is composed of live alfalfa...birdsfoot trefoil..turnip greens, collard greens and frozen mixed vegies..."

SR

If you are on Doug's website, this information can be found in the second paragraph from the bottom of the diet section.

I do not think anyone is saying not to feed collard greens Shelley. Nor do I think someone should base their decision on one or two people's opinion. (Although who better to listen to on the structural and nutritional makeup of a plant than a toxicologist?)

As I would suggest to all- investigate the nutritional data yourself, gather the possible benefits and drawbacks and draw your own conclusion on how often to feed.

I think everyone is beating a dead horse here. Any food item, fed exclusively, would not be nutritionally balanced and most likely end up being detrimental in the long run. Collards, like many greens, are just fine when fed in moderation along with a large variety of other greens. It would be similar to humans just eating vegetables because vegetables are supposed to be good for you. They are, but as part of nutritionally complete diet, not as a sole food source. Everyone on this forum has only the best interest of their uros at heart. Read everything you can, listen to opinions,(particularily those of long term breeders), and move forward from there. Best of luck

Pam

Pam,

I do not believe that it is anyone’s intention is to beat a dead horse. Clarifying misinformation and misinterpreting of material is what this post is all about. When you see a heading like “incorrect” and the material inside the post does not jive with facts and data you have, you should bring that data to the table- so to speak. Seeing the misinterpretation of someone else’s statements and views (Doug's in this case) on a particular subject also needs to be discussed. This is what these forums are all about. Everyone knows and understands that nothing fed in excess is good. That does not mean that there should not be discussions on what food sources are most appropriate to feed in higher amounts and what should be limited or not used at all. I think that this is a very important discussion and I believe that Shelley was just trying to get her facts straight to decide whether she should continue to feed as a major food source or limit the amount she feeds. In order to help her make this determination she wanted some clarification on where some of us were getting the idea that Doug does not use collard greens (as others have stated he does) as a staple. Don’t take this personally but your post reiterated what has already been said numerous time on this subject which some of us could also very well view as beating a dead horse.
I guess it is all subjective.

Debb...

Just curious...
How long have you had or bred uromastyx?
How many and what species do you have?
Is all of your experience derived from the keeping and breeding of uromastyx or does it come from reading and other sources?

I find it very interesting to see what different people have and their personal level of experience. I am most interested in successful breeders as that would seem to be a very enjoyable aspect of uromastyx ownership.

Thanks!

Pam

Pam,

I am happy to share some information about myself and how I acquire information and data on uromastyx. Please feel comfortable in doing the same.

I have kept many different types of reptiles in the last 20+ years and it will be 4 years this May that I have kept uromastyx. I currently have 21 uromastyx (sometimes hard to keep track) with 3 mali, 2 ornates, and the rest geryi (both red and yellow). This number will probably increase significantly when I purchase six new 6’ enclosures within the next month. I have been working on acquiring something new so it will probably not be geryi, ornates, or malis.

I decided to breed these animals three years ago but held back breeding geryi the first year as I decided to be extremely fussy about the age and weight of the females that I use for breeding. I felt that my females still needed a little time acclimating and putting on weight and my goal was certainly not to rush things. My first success was with mali eggs (well, I raised bearded for many years prior to that) and I had my first batch of fertile geryi eggs last year. I actually made it over the crucial ‘hump’ with the geryi eggs only to have excess moisture accumulate on the inside lid of the container three weeks in and directly contaminate the eggs (resulting in mold) while I was out of town for a week. (This was not a total loss as I was able to gather a little information by dissecting the partially developed eggs under a microscope.)
I decided to hold back breeding the mali all together this year and concentrate on the geryi as this is where the demand and research seems to be needed (my opinion) most. Right now, I have three (possibly four) gravid females so I am keeping my fingers crossed for a more favorable outcome this year. I recently constructed a new incubator out of a 13 cu ft freezer and will be trying something a little different this year by keeping the overall humidity at a desired level and using an open top egg chamber.

I take extensive notes on my personal experiences and have tons of files and folders containing personal data on everything from weights, diet, activity/behavior, breeding photos and video, substrate…. When experimenting with incubation material last year, I set up 5 different media combinations and tracked moisture levels 4 weeks prior to determining which combination/proportions I would use. (little good did that do me huh?) But, this is how I operate nevertheless.

My research has come from a variety of places. I have invested countless hours (went from full time job to full time uros four years ago) in research on the internet, many books, a close relationship with a veterinarian, many, many hours of conversation with a reputable breeder, and reaching out to some very knowledgeable professors and people for information. I have also been known to translate an email or two when wanting to obtain information from sources from other countries.

My research technique may be a little different than some others out here (not saying all) as I am not satisfied with just reading someone’s website or caresheet.
To give you a few examples of how I invest time in acquiring information, I can provide the following two examples:

When I ‘heard’ that collard greens where not great as a staple, I wanted to know exactly why. Using educational/institutional websites and material, I was able to track down the causative factor and then identified the exact agent in collard greens that was responsible for the negative comments. I then did research on how this chemical adversely effects humans and animals. If memory serves me right, I believe I even found a study that was done on cattle showing the effects of feeding. Based on this data, I drew my own conclusions on whether to feed and how often.

When Danny Molco published information on the study and diet of ornates in their natural habitat, I wasn’t satisfied with just reading the article. I wanted more information so I contacted him to try to identify the nutritional breakdown of the plants that the ornates mainly fed upon so that I could search for plants with similar structural makeup here in the states.
I guess that I am just one of these people who want to know how and why the clock ticks rather than just seeing the time.

My family will tell you that I am a little compulsive and spend a great deal of my time ‘living and breathing’ uromastyx. They have learned to accept these faults but my husband still has difficulty with canceling week long vacations due to eggs not being laid prior to the trip. Thank goodness I have a patient understanding husband (gave me a new upgraded uvb meter for Valentines Day) and the time to invest in these wonderful animals.

If you (or anyone else out there) has had success with hatching geryi eggs, I will love to write or speak with you on your experiences.

On a more personal note- I noticed you mentioned Lee Watson's reptile swap in a previous post. I have been attending these swaps for 10+ years. If you go often, we probably have bumped into each other without knowing it. I do not get there as often since moving out of state but purchased a nice little ornate there a few months ago.

Debb...

Sounds like you love your animals and take the very best care of them that you can. I applaud the countless hours of research you do to insure their well-being. I am an avid reader and have a large collection of various books and love to listen to good speakers when I get a chance. Research is paramount in caring for your animals, as you can't believe everything you read or hear. As far as uros go, the longest I have had mine is about 2 years. My uros are too young to breed at this time other than the geryi who is currently unattached. LOL I have:

0.1 u. geryi (Fanta)
1.2 u. ornata (Husani, Bintu and Zari)
2.1 u benti pseudophilbyi (Rafiki, Kito and Anu)
1.1 u. ocellatus (Zuhri and Ashai)

and

1.3 varanus acanthurus brachyurus (Dorado, Pudge, Dora & Daisy)
0.0.2 varanus acanthurus acanthurus(As yet unnamed)
0.0.2 litorea caerulea (Dumpy and Yoshi)
1.0 callopistes maculatus (Mosiac)
1.0 pseudemys floridana (Scooter)
1.0 hyla chrysoscelis (Clyde)
0.0.1 rhacodactylus auriculatis(Smudge)

I am currently considering downsizing the uros to devote more time to the monitors. I am a big fan of the odatria and would like to increase my collection to include tristis and storrs and eventually move to the indo species like the tree monitors.
As far as Lee Watson's, I have not been there since September. My biggest reason for going there was to pick up my custom made cages from Chuck at Reptats. I buy all of my cages from him as he will make them to order for me. Most of the people there are scary and I seriously question the health of many of the animals. It certainly is buyer beware. My favorite show around here is Tinley Park. I am considering going to the Fire show in Orlando in July, that would be awesome. Best of luck with yours, I hope you hatch many healthy babies!

Regards,
Pam

Pam,

I am ashamed to admit that I know very little about ackies. From the picture, I can tell that they are beautiful animals and also well cared for. The larger monitors always fascinated me but I have never owned one. They are gorgeous animals but their upkeep (live food) and enclosure requirements always prevented me from actually buying one. I gradually got away from reptiles that required live food (not including insects) and have not looked back. Maybe I should have looked into the smaller ackies instead.

How do you like your Bentis? I have heard so many stories about how touchy (stress) they are in captivity that I have shied away from owning one. I have had my share of fun trying to acclimate all of my wc geryi so I decided for the time being not to take on something that may be even touchier. They are gorgeous animals though.

Regarding Lee’s swap- I agree, you definitely need to know the breeders and people you are dealing with. Luckily, I knew one of the breeders and was able to get some inside information on who to deal with and who not to deal with. After attending the show enough, you could also figure out on your own who had healthy animals and who didn’t. I am pretty fussy when it comes to uromastyx so in all of my years of attending the swap, the ornate was the only uro I purchased from Lee’s. I take that back, I did buy a female mali three years ago from a guy who I had dealt with on frogs for several years. The geryi always looked horrible and I dreaded even seeing them. There is a decent tortoise/turtle person there and I did end up with a nice G. Sulcata. I also went there primarily to purchase boxes of crickets, feeder mice, supplies and accessories as the prices were always much better than pet stores. Ended up with a few exotics every now and then but that is a whole other forum…

Take care

Ahhhhhhh, the Bentis. The Deer Fern Farms descriptions of the bentis is 100% accurate. They are very shy, like chipmunks. My one male will let me approach him and pet him, the other male, sometimes. The poor little female is so terrified of her own shadow I never touch her. If you do, she immediatley flips over in an act of submission. Of the three I have, one has grown quite nicely, the other two very slow. They never offer to bit or tail whip.

As far as the odatria species, there are many very small ones, in fact the v.storri are only 12 inches. Storri are notorious though for not be very social with each other. My ackies eat mostly dusted crickets, with some ft pinkies, szd and some superworms. They are really fun. If I ever get the tree monitors, that will be a different story entirely. If we want to chat further, you can e-mail me at:

pgross8245@wi.rr.com

Best Regards,

Pam

Thanks Pam - I will probably do (email) just that.

Debb:

You're right...I didn't read down far enough...I really do understand what you're saying and agree with it...I need to become a more careful reader (although I do thinks it's somewhat confusing to list collards in their"primary diet" and then, several paragraphs later, suggest that you limit their feeding); I also think a lot of people (including me at times) become obsessed with "rules"...ALWAYS do this, NEVER do that; A is right, B is wrong...and of course when you're dealing with living beings, it's never that simple...It's also so much easier to memorize a set of rigid rules than it is to actually think, research and incorporate the comcepts of "sometimes" and "maybe" into your thinking...

So, "sometimes" I'll feed collard greens, and "maybe" I'll even include mustard greens now and then..I'm a wild woman

SR

Shelley,

You go girl.

I think we all need to 'think outside the box' sometimes.