Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ive been thinking about this issue, and have noticed a few things: 1. you can buy Live food for fish 2. you can buy insects for lizards 3. people hunt in the uk (deer) 4. A python hthats over 15 years old fed only only LIVE feild mice, never bitten by them no rish to him and looks like alot less pain than hunters killing a deer Ok It does bug me but if they were meant to eat dead things they would be scavengers not the great hunters they are known to be. Why does a great country who use to rule the world have to be so soft now? The brits they went from being the frightful rulers of colonys all over the world to the exact opposite. Ok now to explain, I love england i love its openness, exceptance, and tollorance as compaired to the puritanical bible bashing going on in the states. But come on some say we can live on fake meat so why isnt anything eating any animal alive or dead (wait hows those frozen mice/rats die to get frozen anyway?!)

ok sorry about my ranbling just found this something that people should really think about and consider if we are being better by feeding them frozen mice then isent it wrong for them to eat live ones in the wild as well? Or are we just doing the human thing and trying to place our beleifs and sence of moralaty on a snake?

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Snakes DO scavenge in the wild. So it's not really unnatural for them to eat dead prey. If it was they probably wouldn't do it so readily.
And live rodents DO harm snakes. Just because one python escaped harm doesn't mean it's not a risk. It's always a risk, every time you do it.
But I think the live/dead question ought to be up to the owner's discretion. I have several snakes that I'd have to either force feed or let starve if I couldn't feed them live rodents. And it's generally not that cruel to the rodents, they die very quickly if they're appropriately sized. I wonder if it's not quicker than gassing. As long as humans keep carnivores as pets we will have to feed them other animals. The way in which we have to kill these animals shouldn't be banned because it makes some people queasy. I'm sure the chickens that were slaughtered to make the food I give my dog didn't go in a pretty way either. I also know that mice and rats make fantastic loveable pets but everything is a 'feeder' to something and we just have to accept that.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

is anything on this entire earth done the 'natural way' is what you should be asking, and does it really matter? I mean, I am a horse person, and you better believe that keeping horses in captivity is for the most part nothing like they would do out in the wild. Doesn't mean they aren't kept well and content (in most cases) I think it's a bit silly to be thinking of the snakes that way. Their brain power isn't exactly like ours. They get food. They survive. That seems to be good enough for most of them. The dead food is kept fresh, it's not rotting, we aren't forcing them to eat anything that will sicken them. If you want all natural we shouldn't keep them, shouldn't selectively breed them. They should all be roaming free. Except there is less and less space for anything in the wild and in not too long there will be almost none and the animals in our care will be the 'lucky' ones who survive and people can come look and say, oooh, those used to be wild where our city now is. The heck with natural, I'd be happy with 'adequate' for all animals in human care because a lot of them don't even get that courtesy from their keepers. I think I'm ranting and I am sorry but this post kinda set me off....it's 3 in the morning and I am waiting for a mare to foal and have a lot of time to think about just how disappointing the human race is as a whole. Sorry.
And bear in mind.....things are only'wrong' or 'right' because we say so....and who is to say that is 'right'?
PS I spent a year in England and I loved the people there but I really fail to see what your comments it have to do with anything. soft huh? you make it sound like the country has failed somehow along the way. But I would definitely say that they are no more tolerant than we 'puritanical bible bashing americans'
and like the previous post said.....mice are frequently killed by suffocating them in CO2 chambers. Not very pretty or super quick (usually 10-20 seconds at most) but then again there are animals shelters that use larger versions to kill thousands of unwanted animals every year. those don't go as fast.

I have at least one snake who will only either eat live pinks... or day old dead pinks. Yuck. Guess he knows what he's doing!
I think the whole England rant was because feeding snakes live food is now illegal there.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

I never would have imagined they would do something like that...I know England has strict animal rights laws (I went to vet school there so we had to deal with them every day--the vet college even had labs in CHINA to be able to do some of the research they did because they wouldn't be allowed to do it England) Man....I gotta say I am impressed, though not in a good way.

There was also a guy posting a little while ago that there's a movement afoot to ban ALL exotic animals keeping in the UK. I've never been more glad to live in America, where you can just move to another state if your state does something you don't like.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

As long as man is in control animals will suffer. I feed my snakes frozen thawed becasue I don't like the idea of watching a little mouse being squeezed to death. In the wild both the snake and prey have an equal chance. The prey can run away and so can the snake so it don't get injured by the prey. When us humans put them in a cage and they don't have a choice the only humane thing to do is feed them in a way to keep them safe. And feeding them dead prey is a safe way. In the wild animals have to eat what they can to survive so I'm sure some snakes will eat dead prey to survive.
For me to have snakes as pets is great. They are fascinating and I want to keep them safe. They give me joy so in return I make sure they have a safe enviroment to live in. And that included feeding them dead prey.
Just my 2 cents opinion.....:0)

Political Correctness is a choice,the sad part is more people should resist it instead of condone it.

Well...Maybe I made that one up, huh? Fact is: It is safer and healthier for our CAPTIVE snakes to be eating frozen/thawed. Period. If a snake will only eat live, as pointed out in other posts, then that sure beats starving. For me it is not so much about the rodents suffering or not suffering (again, another post pointed out that there may not be a big difference here).
Frozen/thawed is safer for my snakes, AND more convenient for me by far. Both score big points with me.
I am sure there have been many snakes, both wild and captive, that have suffered fatal rodent bites. Of that, there is no doubt in my mind. I choose not to take that particular risk. It is not "six of one/half dozen of the other" it is the wisest choice, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many experienced herpers. If one chooses to feed live, that's fine as long as you understand the risk, are willing to take the risk, and will at least try to minimize the risk to your captive animals.
Yes, wild snakes eat live food (and many eat dead food also).
Many of us herpers have CHOSEN to make safer, wiser decisions for our pets. Duffy

Doesn't really matter what is natural. Keeping snakes is not natural. Therefore you can not apply these ideas to a captive snake. By that same token, shouldn't you allow your pythons to have an acre or so to roam around on and feed them wild pigs and goats and what not? Because if they should be fed live prey, they should be fed natural live prey, I believe. A caiman for every anaconda, birds for ratsnakes, and a strict diet of other snakes for kings. I mean seriously. In nature these things eat live prey (even though snakes have actually been shown to feed on DOR prey), but in captivity there is no purpose for feeding them live prey because they are not in nature. They are captive, under your care, and since you are not nature or a deity, then what they do naturally is of no consequence since they can be taken care of just as well without live prey.
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Andy Maddox
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I often wonder if feeding live (particulary in captivity) is in anyway stressful for them.
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First, I agree - well said, Andy.

I think there is a definite risk of added stress to a snake fed live prey in captivity. If (s)he isn't hungry (often a symptom of stress in the first place), the introduction of another live animal into the confined space of the snake's enclosure will only be sensed as the presence of a potential predator - by BOTH parties! In the wild, the two simply would crawl off in different directions and avoid the encounter; they cannot do so in captivity. With both the snake and the rodent on the defensive, the potential increases for the rodent to become the aggressor - if only to defend itself from a perceived predator. This probably is THE main reason for casualties to snakes at the hands of live prey.
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MichaelB

There is nothing "unnatural" about snakes eating dead food. I have seen many snakes in the wild eating dead snakes, dead rodents, dead amphibians, etc on the road at night. I once found a checkered gartersnake peeling the skin of a dead Spadefoot off the road and swallowing it. I have offered a DOR frog to a wild gartersnake on the road and had it take it right out of my hands.

Snakes are opportunists, and if they can eat without risking their lives, they will do so everytime!

Have you ever looked at the number of wildcaught snakes with missing eyes, scars, missing tail tips, etc. from feeding accidents? That's natural. Those were the snakes that weren't lucky enough to find prekilled prey. Take a look at some of the photos of the scars received at Ryan Hoyers rubberboa site (rubberboas dot com). Personally, I don't want my snakes to suffer like wild snakes do.

If you really want natural, maybe you should be concerned about the fact that captive snakes generally have an unnaturally low parasite burden. You could easily start innoculating your animals with cestode eggs or strongyloid worms for more natural conditions!
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Chris Harrison

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too true