Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys, need some advice!

My Apalachicola King had her post brumation shed the last days of February, first days of March. I introduced her to the male after she shed and ate and they bred three times before they both stopped seeming interested in one another. My thought then was that she was gravid, and I had no need to keep introducing them. About 22 days after the last time they bred she is now blue again! If anything she appears ever so slightly thinner than when taken out of brumation, though she's been eating like a hog up until the one she refused last night. I was shocked to see her blue, as by my calculatio she shouldn't be going blue for at the very least another 3 or 4 weeks.

Should I introduce her back to the male after she sheds? Should I keep her separate and offer her a laying box on the off chance she has some ridiculously small clutch of one or something? Should I worry? I looked her over very very carefully, wondering if she could have mites, as I know that mites can cause a snake to shed more frequently, but could find nothing. I can treat her cage with reptile relief if necessary, allowing it to fully air out before replacing her with brand new bedding. Should I do that? I'm at a loss. Last year she bred only the once with the same male, had 8 eggs and a slug, no problems, she followed the schedule! This year she is baffling me!

Here's a picture of her last year when she was a week away from laying. (yes, she's safe, it was her choice to climb up into my hair while I was cleaning her cage, and she was never in danger of falling)

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~Sasheena

I would go ahead and put them together again after she sheds and observe them to see if they want to breed again.

Also, we need to get together so that I can loan you a male pyro for breeding purposes. I might be headed your way sometime next week. I will know for sure tomorrow afternoon.

Also, just got a new digital camera last night. I bought a Nikon Coolpix 5700 (5 megapixel; 8x optical zoom). So I will now be playing with my new toy until I figure it out LOL, of course I will have to take new pics of all my snakes

Kerby...

Lookin forward to your new pics... sent you an email, not sure if you got it. Hoping that my Pyro isn't past breeding. She shed about a week ago. She's very robust and I think she's good to go if it's not too late.
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~Sasheena

I just got home, thank goodness for days off LOL

I will e-mail ya back.

Kerby...

My lampropeltis often shed 40 days after their first copulation. If yours bred for the first time say, the 3rd of march, she'd be at 28 or 29 days today; she's blue, say she takes another 5-6 days to shed, that'll put her at 33-35 days; then 10 days after the shed to lay, would put her at 43 to 45 days. I'm not sure what that schedule was she followed last year, but it sounds to me like she's on a reasonable course.

The fact that she's slimming down is odd though, as is the fact she fed right up to immediately prior to going in shed, though that latter behavior isn't way out of line for some females. It is possible she's not gonna breed effectively til after her 2nd shed. You have the diff task of deciding which it is--when she crawls thru your hands are the eggs conspicuous, ie you can count them? Viewed from above, has the thickening or swelling of the body shifted lower toward the tail, instead of mid-body? Those would be signs she's gravid, along with distended skin. If she comes out of the shed feeding, i'd say she's not gravid. You could always continue to breed her to the male AND put a box with her 7-8 days after the shed.

Let us know what conclusions you reach, and the eventual outcome.

Terry
Albino Tricolors

I just inspected her for a few minutes this morning. Was getting dressed and didn't have too much time for a prolonged examination. She definately did NOT look gravid. In fact last year, I wasn't sure she was gravid when she was, and I snapped the photo in my original post so that I could ask folks on here if she was indeed gravid, and I really studied her particular build, etc, at that time. I think the feeling I get that she's "skinny" comes from my mental comparison of how she was then, when she had just finished her pre-lay shed, to how she is now. Also, at that time she was a real food horse. She went blue and went off feed, but as soon as she shed I offered her a mouse just to see if she wanted it, and sure enough, she did eat after her pre-lay shed, so in the past she ate basically up to the end of her 'pregnancy'. I DO remember she had a shed after coming out of brumation last year, but I didn't have any male to offer to her, so I didn't breeed her until after her second shed, which was just about this same time of the year last year. So it could be her own internal clock says that mid April is the time to procreate.

As far as counting the eggs, I have only had the two kings I bred last year as examples and with both of those I always felt a bit too squeamish to try to feel for eggs... afraid I would hurt them or the eggs, so I never really could feel eggs last year... just didn't have the guts for more than the most surface "feel"... so I couldn't tell if there are eggs inside. I have to get better at that I guess. I have to purchase a new egg laying container as I have a few more gravid females this year than last, so my plan is to put one of those with her, AND put the male with her, once she's shed and fed (if she's hungry).

Thanks for the detailed response, and we'll see what we get. She had the BEST babies last year, and I was REALLY looking forward to another clutch. The one I kept is an absolute stunner and mean as heck to boot!

My Two gravid Cal Kings are so far on schedule. One bred the week after I finished up with Pandora, and the other bred the week after her.
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~Sasheena

I am not sure of others opinions here,but I think egg development and embryo development happen with differing levels of "expected"trauma.I think squeezing a gravid female is much safer than the same pressure on the same egg post-parturation.If she is indeed gravid in my experience they dont mind at all the subtle movement by a palpating finger...in fact getting things moving in there is a good thing in my opinion.Good luck,Jeff

Well I just gave her a bit of a squeeze...or rather palpated her.... to my uneducated fingers there's nothing but snake under those scales... no little bubbles of eggs.... ??? I have a corn that is obviously gravid. When I get home from school today I'll give it a shot with her to see if I can feel teh difference. I'm sure it's one of those things that "once you've felt it, you'll know" but I haven't yet gotten that far.
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~Sasheena

>> I DO remember she had a shed after coming out of brumation last year, but I didn't have any male to offer to her, so I didn't breeed her until after her second shed, which was just about this same time of the year last year. So it could be her own internal clock says that mid April is the time to procreate.
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You raise an interesting question i've been wrestling with. I always say "wait til after the second shed" to breed hondurans, but then i see that while most of my females progress to their second sheds 3 1/2 or 4 weeks after the first, some that are just as big and eating just as aggressively still haven't yet gone blue five or six weeks later. Perhaps these females are going to breed on an internal clock, instead of after x sheds? To play safe, i usually put those females with a male if their second sheds seem delayed, which puts them on about the same schedule calendar-wise as those that proceeded regularly thru two sheds. And for what it's worth, most of those delayed females do attract--and accept--a male's overtures. (i.e., they do it) this would support the chronology-vs-sheds argument. but i've also noticed those females that breed after the first shed seem to be less productive, so maybe the "timing" isn't optimal after all, and maybe i should wait... But i see them puffing up, otherwise looking like they're ovulating, like their moment has arrived, and waiting isn't a very appealing strategy.

I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this issue.

terry

Because some snakes will ovulate without a post brumation shed. Waiting on sheds does not always work. Females can retain sperm until they ovulate; months and sometimes for a year. I breed my corns early, but on my cal kings I have to watch very closely. If the female isn't ready then there could be problems with cannibalism. Last year I had 3 sets of cal kings try to kill each other on first introduction (why I observe my cal kings breeding) but a week later they bred.

I usually take my snakes out of brumation on 15 Feb and start breeding on 1 Mar. But this year I brought them up on 15 March and haven't started breeding them yet. I will on my corns in a couple of days. My pyros I'm waiting until 1 May.

I think the weather has a lot to do with it. This year I was able to wait until 15 March before the weather turned and got warm. Daylight, barometric pressure, etc....

I've never waited for 2 sheds....

Kerby...