Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just saw a very fascinating program on National Geo concerning the learning ability and training of crocodilians in captivity and namely in zoos and parks. It's not something I am new to at all. Quite to the contrary it's something I have been talking about and practicing for a couple of decades. That being the alligators' and crocodiles' ability to learn and be trained. This is something I have been doing since the very early 80's begining with teaching individual adult and juvenile gator's and caimans their own names and taking it in leaps and bounds from there to full sentence training. I have been contradicted, doubted and even outright ridiculed when attempting to discuss these aspects of the capabilities of crocodilians, oftentimes right here in this very forum. So while I am a little saddened that it has been an impossible endeavor at times to relate this information to fellow herpers, and the ever doubtful "pros", lol, I am truly pleased to finally see it displayed on TV. Now people can see what I've been trying to describe first hand.

Dr Brady Barr was showcased on the program, and I respect his drive and what he does for the field, but his knowledge of the animals doesn't hold a candle to that of the keepers that were portrayed but not named. But any which way one looks at it it is due to Brady Barr's celebrity that brings these issues to light. And this is all good.

I really dug on the extra segment on cuban crocs. They are my favorite crocs and I am enthralled by them and their unique ways of galloping and leaping.

I do not like nor agree with the way the crocodiles are kept or treated in the Indian croc park. They show the animals almost zero respect and I feel it is only a matter of time before that guy gets his head or arm taken clean off.

Other than this one thing the show was fascinating, enlightening and well overdue.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Sounds like the program you're describing was "Supercroc", or one of the various offshoots they've created from the same footage. The Cuban crocs were from Gatorland, and the training was initiated by Flavio Morrissiey (though several of their guys have been involved in it). They started this back in 1997 or 1998 from memory - Flavio asked me whether it was possible, as they'd received conflicting advice, and I was one of several people who encouraged them to go for it. I've long believed crocs were capable of this - it's just a case of using the right signals and associating with appropriate actions. They keep pushing the envelope, and I'm very impressed with what they've done. The crocs at our park in Darwin also respond to signals, though they're less formally trained - they even associate timings with events. These are all traits that wild crocs display - the challenge is convincing people that something is going on inside their head.

Now quite a few places in the US are using target training and other forms of association to assist husbandry - it's a regular componenent of the AZA croc course in Florida each year. Basically, the "croc training scene" is bigger than you might think.

Adam

No,. I have known that it goes on,.. it just hasn't been widely portrayed or highlighted in recent television programming. I was just referring to all the countless times that I have posted in here that I have crocodilians that are trained from hatching, that understand me and the situation perfectly and respond to whole sentences and scores of other verbal stimuli. I have been contradicted time and again and "informed" that these animals are really just limited to and governed by their ancient instinct. I happen to know quite well that this is the furthest thing from the truth. But good luck on getting new truths out there without a famous name or a televised medium, you know.

A friend of mine has been "training" crocodilians for a long time too and even got some of my own animals in some different movies and commercials. You probably know him. But just to name one progect, he got one of my smaller females (Wilma 5 1/2 feet at the time) in "Flight of the Intruder" with Willem Dafoe and Danny Glover in 88. Now, she didn't need any training. She was selected because of her predictable tendency to lunge at the camera with a ferocious growl and wide, gaping jaws.

Anyhow,... I hope that they have a lot more programs like that in the near future. I think it's great to show more of the animal's ability to learn and comprehend, than just behavior that portrays them as big dumb predatory reptiles.

>>Sounds like the program you're describing was "Supercroc", or one of the various offshoots they've created from the same footage. The Cuban crocs were from Gatorland, and the training was initiated by Flavio Morrissiey (though several of their guys have been involved in it). They started this back in 1997 or 1998 from memory - Flavio asked me whether it was possible, as they'd received conflicting advice, and I was one of several people who encouraged them to go for it. I've long believed crocs were capable of this - it's just a case of using the right signals and associating with appropriate actions. They keep pushing the envelope, and I'm very impressed with what they've done. The crocs at our park in Darwin also respond to signals, though they're less formally trained - they even associate timings with events. These are all traits that wild crocs display - the challenge is convincing people that something is going on inside their head.
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>>Now quite a few places in the US are using target training and other forms of association to assist husbandry - it's a regular componenent of the AZA croc course in Florida each year. Basically, the "croc training scene" is bigger than you might think.
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>>Adam
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

You seem to have a fair deal of experience with it Brian, but it's only in the last few years that the ease with which they can be trained has been more widely recognised and used in management situations. But yes, there will be more television coverage of this in the future. I'm always pushing this side of croc behaviour when I assist with documentaries, and the latest is an upcoming program entitled "King Croc" under the BBC's "Wildlife on One" series that explores croc intelligence in greater detail. It was co-funded by Discovery but not sure when it will air in the US.

Adam

Better late than never, I suppose. Right? I think I have always just assumed that anyone that kept crocodilians for any considerable time would see and recognize what I have always seen and recognized. I guess I was way wrong. And you can't really get a pre-established gator of an alien history and achieve the same results. That being the results of working with fresh hatchlings and working with them as they grow and age, with the phenomenal benefit of the fact that they began their life with being familiar with you and accepting you as part of their environment. It is immediately imprinted in their psyche, for lack of better words. You may be interested in some exerpts from some of my journals one day. I have kept many over the last three decades. What amazes me most is their ability to learn multiple and complex things even in the first few days of their lives. It's astounding.

Anyhow,. thanks for responding to my posts.

>>You seem to have a fair deal of experience with it Brian, but it's only in the last few years that the ease with which they can be trained has been more widely recognised and used in management situations. But yes, there will be more television coverage of this in the future. I'm always pushing this side of croc behaviour when I assist with documentaries, and the latest is an upcoming program entitled "King Croc" under the BBC's "Wildlife on One" series that explores croc intelligence in greater detail. It was co-funded by Discovery but not sure when it will air in the US.
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>>Adam
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Its nothing new for experienced Croc keepers to hear about the ability to learn names and one or two signals.At Frankfurt Zoo, every crocodilian, even the large Gharial, knew its name exactly and reacted, when called.
But the great success of Gatorland´s, Disney´s and others crocodilian training activities is simply amazing - and some experiences are exciting, too.
I discussed with Flavio 2 years ago and tried training my own animals with also pretty good success. I did not spend as much time as the guys in Orlando, but used optical and sound signals. Both Dwarf crocs and Chinese alligators are as trainable as the cubans and salties at Gatorland,so I have no doubt, that all croc species could be trained in the same way.

Happy Easter to all
Ralf
Link

Im do not in any way doubt that crocodilans can learn a certian amount of behaviors, and are capable of thinking far past what is generally thought capable from them, (The "rigid instincatve beast" mentality) but at the same time, they are not "smart animals" when you look at it in perspective, at least IMHO.

Crocodilans have survived on this planet for an extrodinary amount of time. So they are beatifully built to do what they do, and do it so well, that as of yet, evolution has not produced a creature better at it.

Im sure like most creatures they have the "smarts" they need to survive. At the same time, just because something has outlasted extinction does not make a creature "smart" or even prone to "smartness" or else we had better beware of those roaches...

Im betting a crocodilians capabilaty to comprehend things is limited to things like "food" "mate" "offspring" "rival" and "not threat" "not food". I feel that osceola, when she is interacting with me simply does not feel threatned by the situation, and may even enjoy getting out to steach her legs. Do I think she regards me as her friend?...Hard to say, but I lean towards no. I would say she more likely regards me as a moveing, non threatening, non food item, part of her rotine/enviroment.

I would not think they have concepts of things like extensive problem solving skills, or highly developed social skills. I do not think that even in the wild alligators make "friends" with other alligators. They likely tolarate thier prescance. I think its unlikely that a pet alligator would consider its keeper its "friend"...But, sience I can not get into an alligators head, I can not say this for sure.

I certianly do not think that crocodilains are "animal thinkers", in the sense of primates, parrots corvids, etc, but that they are indeed capable of thinking. They have also proved to be adaptable, and that in itslef is a testament to an animals abilaty to learn how to cope with new situations.

I am betting though, that rats, squirrels, cockatiels, weasels, dogs, etc, would indeed prove to be far better problem solvers then crocodilans. They are all also more likely to form social bonds with keepers as they do with thier kind (and sometimes other species, like as in the case of hornbills and mongoose, and mongoose and warthogs)in nature.

Raven -

How many individual animals (gators/crocodilians) were in your study group to reach these findings?

I ask because,... while I actually agree with quite a lot of what you wrote here,... one can't really reach conclusive data based on the study of a single animal, or even just a few. And if I remember right you got Oscela when she was a considerable age and undoubtedly influenced by other environmental and interactive factors.

The results one gets from a hatchling that has only experienced interacting with the same person or people in a specific environment from the moment of hatching, are very different than working with a "tainted" specimen or one that has been influenced or shaped by other, unknown events, experiences, interactions.

A hatchling that is only around YOU during and after it hatches will "bond" with you in a manner similar if not identical to the young in the wild that instinctually gravitate to the mother for the first couple of years. You will be viewed as "security".

True story: One year I took a 4 month old baby out to "meet it's mother" in the first days of the following spring after it was born. I placed him on the ground and crouched close by. The baby nervously "chirped", or as I call it, "umped". When the mother moved to observe the baby the baby ran to me for protection umping the "help me" chirp and hid behind my legs. Ran and hid from his own mother and sought me out for protection. When I picked him up he instantly relaxed and calmed down. Now,. I already know that a lot of "experts" in this forum are likely to dispute this story or try to imply that I am somehow exagerating it, even though most or all of them have probably never raised a baby from hatchling as I have and spent 24 hours a day with them. Oh well. Cest-La-Vie. But it's a true story nonetheless and it's by far not the most amazing event throughout the years. Just the one that came to mind on this subject. Take from it what you will. But I highly reccomend that everyone obtain a late stage egg if possible and hatch it into your hand and raise the baby from there. It will be a whooooooole different experience than what one gets from obtaining a baby already influenced by who-knows-what. You'll have a baby that follows you around my friend.

>>Im do not in any way doubt that crocodilans can learn a certian amount of behaviors, and are capable of thinking far past what is generally thought capable from them, (The "rigid instincatve beast" mentality) but at the same time, they are not "smart animals" when you look at it in perspective, at least IMHO.
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>>Crocodilans have survived on this planet for an extrodinary amount of time. So they are beatifully built to do what they do, and do it so well, that as of yet, evolution has not produced a creature better at it.
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>>Im sure like most creatures they have the "smarts" they need to survive. At the same time, just because something has outlasted extinction does not make a creature "smart" or even prone to "smartness" or else we had better beware of those roaches...
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>>Im betting a crocodilians capabilaty to comprehend things is limited to things like "food" "mate" "offspring" "rival" and "not threat" "not food". I feel that osceola, when she is interacting with me simply does not feel threatned by the situation, and may even enjoy getting out to steach her legs. Do I think she regards me as her friend?...Hard to say, but I lean towards no. I would say she more likely regards me as a moveing, non threatening, non food item, part of her rotine/enviroment.
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>>I would not think they have concepts of things like extensive problem solving skills, or highly developed social skills. I do not think that even in the wild alligators make "friends" with other alligators. They likely tolarate thier prescance. I think its unlikely that a pet alligator would consider its keeper its "friend"...But, sience I can not get into an alligators head, I can not say this for sure.
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>>I certianly do not think that crocodilains are "animal thinkers", in the sense of primates, parrots corvids, etc, but that they are indeed capable of thinking. They have also proved to be adaptable, and that in itslef is a testament to an animals abilaty to learn how to cope with new situations.
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>>I am betting though, that rats, squirrels, cockatiels, weasels, dogs, etc, would indeed prove to be far better problem solvers then crocodilans. They are all also more likely to form social bonds with keepers as they do with thier kind (and sometimes other species, like as in the case of hornbills and mongoose, and mongoose and warthogs)in nature.
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>>Raven -
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Well, I don't have an extensive study group, nor do I think one is needed to get an base idea of an animals abilaty to think, or relate to other animals.

Im not trying to say I know what an alligator thinks, but judging from thier behavior and biology, and an base understanding of animal behavior, I believe one can draw fairly decent conclusions about an animals capabilaties, when compared to other animals.

Just as you do not think one can recive a well rounded understanding from looking at a single animal (which I agree with) or a small study group, I don't think one can get a well rounded understanding of an animals behavior by looking only at the behavior of captive animals, no matter how many you are looking at.

I got osceola and my 4 caimans, all as older "rescue" and rehomed animals. While I also agree that to a certian extent, that an animal raised from birth would be different then these,

I tend to think things like imprinting would be much more pronounced in a species that is social by nature, like Conrad Lorenz and his study of imprinting and the graylag goose, and many a birdbreeders today experiances with handfed parrots, and that If crocodilians do imprint, it is not nearly to the extent of "higher" animals.

While I would belive that a hatchling alligator could possibly be imprinted, I fail to see how this would affect the animals relationship with you positively once it ages past a few years, as in the wild, mothers at times eat thier own young if they bump into them, and do not continue to protect them after a certian age.

So, any security that the mother would give past this age, would be tenious at best. If the relationship you are describing is the same that they experiance in nature, then why would after the animal matured, it still consider you security, instead of considering you competition, or more likely, a threat to terratory, like imprinted birds of prey often do ?

This is why rather then thinking they imprint, They treat us as a non threatening chunk of strange moving enviorment. I believe the one that hid behind you was just as likely treating you as a barrier to avoid the unfarmiluar predator (the mother alligator), then treating you as "mom", and was simply and instintively, calling.

I obviously see crocodilians as far more limited then you do.

Raven -

You make a lot of good points Raven. And most of them are very valid. But the fact of the matter remains that you have only experienced one side of this fence. You have never raised these animals out of the egg and into adulthood, as "only children", or in closed environments one on one for 24 hours a day. I have. So until you do I don't see how you can possibly speculate on what they are like or what it is like to raise them or be around them. I don't tell astronauts what it's like to fly a shuttle based on my experiences driving my car, lol. Because I have never done it and couldn't possibly know.

I have adults that were raised this way. That live in outdoor environments. That come out of a lengthy hibernation and still have 100% of this behavior I have described. Even though they may be housed with multiple other gators. This in and of itself demonstrates that this behavior is deeply in them and how they are and always will be. It also demonstrates that they have long term memory. And it also demonstrates that this behavior does not wane and disappear when they mature. Even the "tamest" gators I have that weren't raised this way are touchy when they come out of hibernation. These are not. And it isn't because they consider me to be a nearby chunk of wood that they could hide behind. It's because they recognize me and understand perfectly who and what I am.

Really man,.. I respect your knowledge on crocodilians from what you have experienced. It is obviously quite extensive. But it's still limited. And until you actually experience a gator such as this I don't think you have a place to dispute it or to even base what you know on assumptive speculation. I have experienced both sides of this fence and know both sides extensively. If you are interested in experiencing this I can arrange for you to recieve an egg in the last 2 weeks of it's development some time early September. Let me know and we'll begin planning it. I not only want others to witness this remarkable and very unordinary type of gator/experience, but also, anyone that truly loves gators should definitetly experience this at least once.

>>Well, I don't have an extensive study group, nor do I think one is needed to get an base idea of an animals abilaty to think, or relate to other animals.
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>>Im not trying to say I know what an alligator thinks, but judging from thier behavior and biology, and an base understanding of animal behavior, I believe one can draw fairly decent conclusions about an animals capabilaties, when compared to other animals.
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>>Just as you do not think one can recive a well rounded understanding from looking at a single animal (which I agree with) or a small study group, I don't think one can get a well rounded understanding of an animals behavior by looking only at the behavior of captive animals, no matter how many you are looking at.
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>>I got osceola and my 4 caimans, all as older "rescue" and rehomed animals. While I also agree that to a certian extent, that an animal raised from birth would be different then these,
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>>I tend to think things like imprinting would be much more pronounced in a species that is social by nature, like Conrad Lorenz and his study of imprinting and the graylag goose, and many a birdbreeders today experiances with handfed parrots, and that If crocodilians do imprint, it is not nearly to the extent of "higher" animals.
>>
>>While I would belive that a hatchling alligator could possibly be imprinted, I fail to see how this would affect the animals relationship with you positively once it ages past a few years, as in the wild, mothers at times eat thier own young if they bump into them, and do not continue to protect them after a certian age.
>>
>>So, any security that the mother would give past this age, would be tenious at best. If the relationship you are describing is the same that they experiance in nature, then why would after the animal matured, it still consider you security, instead of considering you competition, or more likely, a threat to terratory, like imprinted birds of prey often do ?
>>
>>This is why rather then thinking they imprint, They treat us as a non threatening chunk of strange moving enviorment. I believe the one that hid behind you was just as likely treating you as a barrier to avoid the unfarmiluar predator (the mother alligator), then treating you as "mom", and was simply and instintively, calling.
>>
>>I obviously see crocodilians as far more limited then you do.
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>>Raven -
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

I would like to think they are thinking a little more than I think they are thinking.
I like to see wild crocodilins relating socially. The defensive and submissive postures. Courtship. Dominance. Niles cooperating on a kill. Just the approach of another and the reactions, responses. Hunting cooperation. There is alot going on up there. Probably turned a passion for reptiles into an obsession with crocs. I would like see what the croc sees. Captive, sincerely respectful projects could contribute glimpses. Unfortunately, the projects I here the most of can't be validated. Reducing it all to jibber jabber. I would hate to see an entire forum reduced to jibber jabber.

I couldn't agree more. On all counts.

It's obvious to me that they have more intelligence than is widely accepted. But with limited means to express themselves and with being so very different than say a common mammal in terms of having the ability to relate meaning via facial expressions, they look mostly clumsy and dumb. But I think in order to truly study them and to ascertain their capacity to communicate one needs to not apply existing methods of study, that may be structured around an entirely different animal genre altogether. One really needs to realize the depth of their difference and begin from there.

I have reason to believe that crocodilians can and do occasionally dream. Does anyone else with any true experience know much, if anything, about this and maybe can add to this? The reason I find this particularly interesting, aside from the obvious that it's pretty neat, is that it implies the posibility of a complex subconscious thought process. I'd really like to hear anyone else's thoughts on this, be they pro or con.

>>I would like to think they are thinking a little more than I think they are thinking.
>> I like to see wild crocodilins relating socially. The defensive and submissive postures. Courtship. Dominance. Niles cooperating on a kill. Just the approach of another and the reactions, responses. Hunting cooperation. There is alot going on up there. Probably turned a passion for reptiles into an obsession with crocs. I would like see what the croc sees. Captive, sincerely respectful projects could contribute glimpses. Unfortunately, the projects I here the most of can't be validated. Reducing it all to jibber jabber. I would hate to see an entire forum reduced to jibber jabber.
>>
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

That was a respectful implication of your projects, Brian.

Well thanks then. That's very flattering. How are your niles doing, by the way?

>>That was a respectful implication of your projects, Brian.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

Raven,

Nice website by the way. Your artwork never ceases to impress this fella. I also tend to agree with your statement.

I HAVE raised quite a few alligators from the egg, I HAVE received alligators that I have not raised, I HAVE also received various other crocodilians in various stages of growth. They all can learn. As a general rule I prefer the animals I raise because they have learned the routine I present for them. And an animal I receive from somewhere else may not adapt over so quickly and have to be 'retrained'. Now the questions:

1. Does this indicate any special knowledge on their part?

2. Does an animal I raise 'know' anymore than an animal I don't raise or is it simply more adapted to my routine?

3. After watching alligators in the wild for years the level of imprinting young alligators have for their parents, at least to my eyes, appears to be minimal at best. Saying this I would assume, perhaps incoorectly that even if they imprint on me they would naturally lose this affinity. This you would expect from an animal lower on the evolutionary chain than higher animals. You would also expect this to some degree from an animal that has many offspring as opposed to animals that have few. With few it is MUCH more important to protect each individual specimen than in the case of crocodilians.

HOWEVER adult animals do seem to retain the methods and procedures established when they were young which enables, at least from my perspective, an easier time dealing with animals I personally have raised then received as adults.

Some thoughts

CD

Here are a couple of links about a neuroscientist who has published studies of learning in snakes.

http://www.lasuerte.org/omesnakes.htm

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/gebs/faculty/david_holtzman.htm

I remember years ago hearing of a study which involved teaching lizards to run a maze. As I recall, the main finding was that the lizards (desert iguanas, maybe?) could learn at close to the level of a rodent, but only when the temperature was at a high enough level. It was a different researcher who told me this, and I don't know any specifics about the study, so it may be a myth, but it still sounds somewhat reasonable.

Underachieving Snakes Helped By New Teaching Method

Hey Adam,

Please email me about our project. I have a few questions about our projected finish date.

That aside I have no doubt crocodilians can be trained. Although I tend to agree with Raven that they are not nearly as'bright' as other species. That being said they are not total dullards and are trainable. Clearly the best of the reptile kingdom. Anyone who has kept them will attest to this fact and what is occuring with these 'training' regimens simply allows us to see the potential that has thusfar been ignored or assumed impossible.

It's not the animals that were untrainable....it was the keepers.hehe.